Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by santa100 »

hgg wrote:Why did he always choose India? It would not be fair for all the other beings not been able to have such a teacher.
It'd be unfair for a college level student to blame his professor for providing "wrong information" to his 3-year-old niece by referring to little pink balls instead of exact terms like atoms or electrons..
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hgg
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by hgg »

I just need the Four Noble Truths and Eight -fold path to be true
I guess you are right.
If we posit that the the state of one's mind upon death importantly influences the place where one will be reborn, then, if one's thoughts close to death are about India (which is likely, if one is living in India), one will be reborn in India.
If one would be living in, say, Italy, but would have an intense desire to live in Brasil, then, by the above principle, one would be reborn in Brasil.
That sounds like a plausible explanation. The problem is that there were many Buddhas, not just one.
How is it possible that they were all born and reborn in India? Furthermore, many Buddhas get reborn
on Earth from the Tushita heaven. It looks like there is a direct connection from the Tushita heaven
to India...

Here is the obvious injustice. Buddha's life is devoted in helping all kinds of beings humans included.
If Buddha is only born in India, all the other people of the Earth will not have a chance of knowing and
following the eightfold path directly from an enlightened being. In the texts Buddha can even go to
other realms to teach devas for example, but he never goes to Europe or Australia in order to
instruct these people. This is what looks like a paradox to me.
hgg2016.
binocular
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by binocular »

hgg wrote:Here is the obvious injustice. Buddha's life is devoted in helping all kinds of beings humans included.
If Buddha is only born in India, all the other people of the Earth will not have a chance of knowing and
following the eightfold path directly from an enlightened being. In the texts Buddha can even go to
other realms to teach devas for example, but he never goes to Europe or Australia in order to
instruct these people. This is what looks like a paradox to me.
I suppose one could invest in the experiment of desiring to be reborn in the place where the Buddha is.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
daverupa
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by daverupa »

hgg wrote:The problem is that there were many Buddhas, not just one.
How is it possible that they were all born and reborn in India?
If you're really going on this kick, then consider the fact that, if you go back the requisite length of time - remember, eons and eons - then there was no India, there wasn't even the planet Earth. (And if you adhere to a story that says a Buddha arose in India many eons ago, I've got a bridge to sell you.)

Consider the cosmos, whereby some of the existent universe is unobservable because light hasn't had a chance to reach us yet from those places. Nevermind the crummy life on this planet, what about the swarming multitudes of which we literally haven't even the faintest glimmer?

The fact is, these speculations are in an altogether different direction than that of appropriate attention.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Gaoxing
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by Gaoxing »

Space and time? What happens outside of this concept where no clinging occurs? What about the eons and eons that passed just yesterday with the multitudes of births and deaths? Knowing where the Buddha is now could be expressed in the form of a myth but why is there a Buddha in your head? Is the Buddha a messiah? Well, the Buddha appeared in China a few times this morning and that to a multitude of people but something woke from this delusional puff of smoke and it looked like a tooth fairy but the scribes all fled.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:The fact is, these speculations are in an altogether different direction than that of appropriate attention.
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
daverupa
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by daverupa »

Indeed, it's all very woo-woo.

:alien:

:rolleye:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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hgg
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by hgg »

The fact is, these speculations are in an altogether different direction than that of appropriate attention.
I don't think that these are speculations.
Its a simple observation while reading the pali canon that Buddhas are only reborn in India.

Anyway, thank you for your help and comments.
hgg2016.
binocular
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths

Post by binocular »

hgg wrote: Why did he always choose India?
Maybe "India" here refers to "holy land", and not to that geographical entity that we commonly call "India."
It makes sense that prospective Buddhas are always born in the land that is holy (wherever this may geographically be).
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by binocular »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
daverupa wrote:The fact is, these speculations are in an altogether different direction than that of appropriate attention.
:goodpost:
Read the poster's other concerns:
hgg wrote:
I don't take the rebirth stories as literal truth. The stories do not agree with what we know of the history of the planet.
Then, how will you be able to decide what is true and what is not in the accounts of Buddha ?
If some of the accounts are not true, then more might be false.
How will you be sure for example that there are 31 planes of existence and not only one?

It is very important for a theory to be sound in order to inspire confidence.
If we cannot account for this possible discrepancy in Buddha's rebirths,
the validity of the theory of rebirths might be shaken.

Expecting people to "just have faith" in what a particular teacher or tradition (or just a poster on the interent who claims to be a Buddhist) say and not question it - that's an instruction to blind faith. It's putting the cart before the horse.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
barcsimalsi
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by barcsimalsi »

daverupa wrote: The underlined portion is probably a mistake, since it judges the centuries-long composition of this oral material according to modern historical values, rather than according to then-standard mythical pedagogies and narratives. The oral tradition was such that the reciters were also encouraged to make inferences and connections with the material, and the nature of the recitations would have been such that a reciter would have easily imputed "obvious" additions - ones which felt readily apparent and valid, but which to our way of thinking were unoriginal.

We also ought to remember that the Sangha existed in a context of other groups who vied for social support, so the narrative formats would have been aligned with lay interests and lay conceptions of the cosmos - indeed, since the Buddha left so much undeclared that puthujjana find enticing, it would have been a matter of course to flesh out the conceptions of worlds and beings and whatnot according to prevailing cultural values.
I shall take that as both fraudulent + effective strategy to preserve and spread the heart of dhamma, the 4noble truth as it spells. Thanks for explaining.
Nyana
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:Indeed, it's all very woo-woo.

:alien:

:rolleye:
Was this derogatory comment an example of acting with appropriate attention?

There's a whole lot of open space between dogmatic literalism and cynical derision. You should check it out sometime.
daverupa
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by daverupa »

Nyana wrote:Was this derogatory comment an example of acting with appropriate attention?

There's a whole lot of open space between dogmatic literalism and cynical derision. You should check it out sometime.
We tend to go back and forth on this sort of topic occasionally; smugly taking the moral high ground is something of a contradiction, but you make a good point so long as 'cynical' & 'derisive' describe my motives - but surely you wouldn't presume, up there as you are.

Too bad I said nothing else about the topic, else we might have had something relevant to discuss.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nyana
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:Too bad I said nothing else about the topic, else we might have had something relevant to discuss.
Well, you did:
daverupa wrote:The underlined portion is probably a mistake, since it judges the centuries-long composition of this oral material according to modern historical values, rather than according to then-standard mythical pedagogies and narratives. The oral tradition was such that the reciters were also encouraged to make inferences and connections with the material, and the nature of the recitations would have been such that a reciter would have easily imputed "obvious" additions - ones which felt readily apparent and valid, but which to our way of thinking were unoriginal.

We also ought to remember that the Sangha existed in a context of other groups who vied for social support, so the narrative formats would have been aligned with lay interests and lay conceptions of the cosmos - indeed, since the Buddha left so much undeclared that puthujjana find enticing, it would have been a matter of course to flesh out the conceptions of worlds and beings and whatnot according to prevailing cultural values.
It seems you're suggesting that dhamma narratives were developed by reciters motivated by what the puthujjana would find enticing. But why should these dhamma narratives be relegated to such lowly status -- being segregated from Buddhavacana and not relevant to noble disciples? Why should anyone accept a post-modern relativistic revision of Buddhist history? Might there be more intelligent and compelling ways to relate to this narrative material than by dismissing it as "woo-woo"?
alan
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Re: Buddha's Rebirths - Possible Paradox

Post by alan »

hgg, I like it that you are thoughtful on these matters. Just like to point out there is never a specific mention of India when the Buddha spoke of his past births. Caste and clan perhaps, but that could be read many ways. Most of the world was divided socially along those lines at his time.

As for the Deva realms, that's probably an extrapolation from high meditative states, and should have no bearing on your belief, or non-belief, in the teachings.
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