sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 02, 2013 11:06 pm

Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby manas » Thu May 02, 2013 11:19 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi.retro,

that.does.refer.to.light,however
the.aim.seems.to.be.a."brightened.mind"
furthermore.the.light.is.the.object.in.this.instance,
from.the.very.beginning;
what.i.was.questioning.was.the.notion.of
"meditate.on.the.breath,and.you.will.get.something.else"
thats.what.i.was.questioning.

anyway.i.had.better.admit.that.there.must.be
more.than.one.way.to.undertake.samadhi
and.more.than.one.way.to.experience.it.

metta
:anjali:
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri May 03, 2013 12:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I always thought this was a bit strange when compared to this sutta:

"There are some brahmans & contemplatives, brahman, who have the perception of 'day' when it is night, and of 'night' when it is day. This, I tell you, is their being in a dwelling of delusion. As for me, I have the perception of 'day' when it is day, and of 'night' when it is night. If anyone, when speaking rightly, were to say, 'A being not subject to delusion has appeared in the world for the benefit & happiness of many, out of sympathy for the world, for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings,' he would rightly be speaking of me.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The perception of day when it is night is where these suttas may conflict. One says it's a good thing to do and the other says it's delusional. Perhaps I'm just reading contradiction where there isn't any, so anyone, feel free to edify me on the matter.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 03, 2013 6:24 am

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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Sylvester » Fri May 03, 2013 8:29 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

Metta,
Retro. :)


I always thought this was a bit strange when compared to this sutta:

"There are some brahmans & contemplatives, brahman, who have the perception of 'day' when it is night, and of 'night' when it is day. This, I tell you, is their being in a dwelling of delusion. As for me, I have the perception of 'day' when it is day, and of 'night' when it is night. If anyone, when speaking rightly, were to say, 'A being not subject to delusion has appeared in the world for the benefit & happiness of many, out of sympathy for the world, for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings,' he would rightly be speaking of me.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The perception of day when it is night is where these suttas may conflict. One says it's a good thing to do and the other says it's delusional. Perhaps I'm just reading contradiction where there isn't any, so anyone, feel free to edify me on the matter.



Check this out - viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7728#p124726
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri May 03, 2013 8:37 am

mikenz66 wrote: It might be better to simply talk about light and deep jhanas.


Or perhaps to recognise that the absorption factors can be present in varying degrees?
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Pacceka1996 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:46 am

pegembara wrote:
Mojo wrote:With this topic in mind, which, if any, teachers teach the Anapanasati Sutta in such a way that the vipassana jhanas are attained and not the commentarial jhanas?


The stages through which you have already passed — watching the breath come in and out, long or short — should be enough to make you realize — even though you may not have focused on the idea — that the breath is inconstant. It's continually changing, from in long and out long to in short and out short, from heavy to light and so forth. This should enable you to read the breath, to understand that there's nothing constant to it at all. It changes on its own from one moment to the next.

Once you have realized the inconstancy of the body — in other words, of the breath — you'll be able to see the subtle sensations of pleasure and pain in the realm of feeling. So now you watch feelings, right there in the same place where you've been focusing on the breath. Even though they are feelings that arise from the stillness of the body or mind, they're nevertheless inconstant even in that stillness. They can change. So these changing sensations in the realm of feeling exhibit inconstancy in and of themselves, just like the breath.

When you see change in the body, change in feelings, and change in the mind, this is called seeing the Dhamma, i.e., seeing inconstancy. You have to understand this correctly. Practicing the first tetrad of breath meditation contains all four tetrads of breath meditation. In other words, you see the inconstancy of the body and then contemplate feeling. You see the inconstancy of feeling and then contemplate the mind. The mind, too, is inconstant. This inconstancy of the mind is the Dhamma. To see the Dhamma is to see this inconstancy.

When you see the true nature of all inconstant things, then keep track of that inconstancy at all times, with every in-and-out breath. Keep this up in all your activities to see what happens next.

What happens next is dispassion. Letting go. This is something you have to know for yourself.

Upasika Kee http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ensed.html



Very Nice.
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