Can mind exist without matter?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Sylvester »

Good catch!

But, as much as I'd like to invoke SN 12.19 to support the dichotomy, I'm not sure if the context allows it. It suggests that the duality/pair is the condition for contact. Based on the standard full DO sequence, it's nāmarūpa which is the condition for the sense bases and contact thereon. But the condition for name and form is consciousness, which does not appear here, unless the "body" is to be read idiomatically to refer to the "bodies of consciousness" (found elsewhere in suttas such as DN 33, MN 137, MN 146, SN 12.2). The phrase cha viññāṇakāyā (6 bodies/groups of consciousness) is a pretty well known concept, and I wonder if the "body" in SN 12.19 should not be a reference to the "bodies" in SN 12.2.

What complicates it a bit is the Sarva Skt parallel (in Tripathi 1962: 140) which says "this arisen body with consciousness". It does mess up the Pali duality structure a bit, by going back to the more familiar DO sequence of consciousness as the condition for nāmarūpa, but with a body appended to the vortex. (Caveat - I've simply translated the BH Skt phrase using Pali grammar, and I could be mistaken in my syntax analysis)

However, Potter would probably agree with you on this, as he believes that SN 12.19 shows a throwback to the Upanisadic duality (Abh Budd to 150 AD, p45).
Last edited by Sylvester on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Aloof
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:57 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Aloof »

Mind can never exist without matter.
This is simple law of nature (Dhamma).

Both mind and matter ascend together to Emptiness.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Ben »

Aloof wrote:Mind can never exist without matter.
This is simple law of nature (Dhamma).
According to who?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Aloof
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:57 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Aloof »

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:Mind can never exist without matter.
This is simple law of nature (Dhamma).
According to who?

1. According to modern science..........All matter and mind disappear together in black hole.
2. According to Buddha...................In vipassana meditation both mind ( form of thoughts) and
sensations ( physical energy- another form of matter) disappear
together.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

According to Buddhism can we consider light, air,space and sub atomic particles (strings et) as matter?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote:The way I understand, mind is arising with mater (gross or subtle) and it is not possible mind to exist without matter.
Don't the suttas describe formless realms, where presumably there is mind without matter?
See here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

Some variations of the dependent origination formula describe a mutual dependence between form and consciousness, but I assume that just applies to the form realms?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote: So, in short, nāma-rūpa as "name and form" rather than "mentality and materiality"?
As I understand it the suttas support both options.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

Hi SN
Thanks. This is the problem I have.
It says that there are Nama and Rupa in Kama-loka.
=================
Rupa means:
Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness.
The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)

===============
Does this mean that Rupa-loka beings have above Rupa? What type of Rupa they have? Are they like human?

Does this mean, Arupa-loka beings do not have Rupa? Is space etc considered as non matter? Isn’t the space cold?
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Does this mean, Arupa-loka beings do not have Rupa? Is space etc considered as non matter? Isn’t the space cold?
:shrug:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.

Note that space is an element, along with consciousness. In some suttas, like MN140, these 2 elements are added to the 4 elements of form, ie earth, wind, fire and water. So it looks like space and consciousness are formless elements.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6590
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Mkoll »

Or maybe they could be seen as elements whose presence is implied when any of the other four primary elements are mentioned. Thus they're even more elemental than elements. For example, two of the formless realms are infinite space and consciousness where there is no form: earth, water, fire, or air. How can there be earth, water, fire, or air without a space for them to be in or a consciousness to perceive them?

Although this is just rampant speculation... :stirthepot:

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13460
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Sam Vara »

"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mkoll wrote:For example, two of the formless realms are infinite space and consciousness where there is no form: earth, water, fire, or air. How can there be earth, water, fire, or air without a space for them to be in or a consciousness to perceive them?
I came across this - does it make things any clearer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formless_Realm

It might help to explore the relationship between the arupa-jhanas and the formless realms.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
Presumably it would be about the locality of consciousness?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13460
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Sam Vara »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
"Arupa" means formless, so yes, presumably beings in arupa-loka don't have rupa, they are pure consciousness.
This raises some questions about what sense we can make of a formless or immaterial realm which contains formless beings. How could we distinguish them? What would mark the boundary between one formless being and another?
Presumably it would be about the locality of consciousness?
Yes, that's my point. What sense can we make of locality in the absence of matter? All our terms of locality relate to stuff in this world. Is one consciousness "North of" of or "to the left of" another consciousness, and how do we know where one ends and another begins?
Post Reply