Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:20 am

Last edited by Kumara on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:33 am

Last edited by Kumara on Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Vakresvara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Vakresvara » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:03 pm

Hello everyone, I am new, but I fascinated by reading about this matter on this forum. On my own experience, those, which never had experience Jana, tends to repeat the idea of those with inclination to a specific teaching or practice.
This had been a common saying by some practitioners, whom in good faith, had been teach these concepts, and somehow, we fail to investigate for ourselves, what the Buddha Taught.

The Buddha did not make a distinction of these practices on the Satipatthana Sutta, but he described the process of the practice:

• Contemplation of the Body (Mindfulness of Breathing)
• The Contemplation of Feeling
• The Contemplation of Consciousness
• The Contemplation of Mental Objects

It is a natural process for practitioners to feel identified with certain aspects of the practice, and as consequence, narrows the practice to their own experience and results, and this is what I think is the source of the disagreement. (Suiting the Practice to your Own) it is valid, but not all individuals are the same, practitioners may have different nature and tendencies, and it is up to them, alone, to walk the path, after all, when certain level of practice is reached, there is no need for external confirmations, ones knows.

Doubt, is one of the Hindrances, an obstacle that only may be removed by the practice, and when we do not know things as they really are, we tend to doubt, and this is why we should learn from our Supreme Master Directly, by practicing diligently and reading the Suttas.

This is what is in the Suttas;

“Friends, whatever monks or nuns declare before me that they have attained the final knowledge of Arahantship, all these do so in one of four ways. What four?

“1. Here, friends, a monk develops insight preceded by tranquility. While he thus develops insight preceded by tranquility, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops, and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so, the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.

“2. Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquility preceded by insight. While he thus develops tranquility preceded by insight, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops, and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so, the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.

“3. Or again, friends, a monk develops tranquility and insight joined in pairs. While he thus develops tranquility and insight joined in pairs, the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops, and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so, the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.

“4. Or again, friends; a monk’s mind is seized by agitation caused by higher states of mind. But there comes a time when his mind becomes internally steadied, composed, unified and concentrated; then the path arises in him. He now pursues, develops, and cultivates that path, and while he is doing so, the fetters are abandoned and the underlying tendencies eliminated.”

Quoted from: The Chapter of the Four

Furthermore, it is described that when a practitioner develops one side of the practice more than other at advanced level of practice, in order to succeed and reach the final goal, a balance between these two aspects of the practice must be attained. In other words, there can’t be Enlightenment without both.

This is what is in the Suttas:

“These four kinds of persons, O monks, are found existing in the world. What four?

“1. Therein, monks, the person who gains internal tranquility of mind but not the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who has gains the higher wisdom and inquire of him: ‘How, friend, should formation be seen? How should formations be explored? How should constructions be discerned with insight?’ The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: ‘Formations should be seen in such a way; they should be explored in such a way; they should be discerned with insight in such a way.’ At a later time, this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things.

“2. Therein, monks, the person who gains the higher wisdom of insight into things but not internal tranquility of mind should approach one who has gained internal tranquility and inquire of him: ‘How, friend, should the mind be steadied? How should the mind be composed? How should the mind be unified? How should the mind be concentrated?’ The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: ‘The mind should be steadied in such a way, composed in such a way, unified in such a way, concentrated in such a way.’ At a later time, this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things.

3. Therein, monks, the person who gains neither internal tranquility of mind nor the higher wisdom of insight into things should approach one who has gained both and inquire of him; ‘How, friend, should the mind be steadied?... How, friend, should formations be seen?…’ The other then answers him as he has seen and understood the matter thus: ‘The mind should be steadied in such a way… Formations should be seen in such a way…’ At a later time, this one gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things.

“4. Therein, monks, the person who gains both internal tranquility of mind and the higher wisdom of insight into things should establish himself in just these wholesome states and make a further effort for the destruction of the taints. “These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in world.”

Quoted from: The Chapter of Four

I hope with this contribute to some clarity.

Vakresvara

pegembara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby pegembara » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:16 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:42 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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manas
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby manas » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:35 pm

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

Bakmoon
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Bakmoon » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:56 pm

I think it is worth noting that according to the Commentarial interpretation, although a medtiator will become attached to the pleasure of jhana, this isn't regarded as something that is specific to jhana based meditation. A practitioner of dry insight will also become attached to the pleasure of meditation for a time as well. Both the jhana meditator and the dry insight meditator will have this kind of attachment until they pass through magga-magga-nana-dasana-visuddhi, the purification of knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path.

Personally I would say that this attachment shouldn't be a matter of concern unless the meditator starts practicing incorrectly or gets wrong motivation about the practice, but I think that would be quite unusual. I think this type of attachment, while present, isn't really a practical matter and certainly shouldn't be used to discourage jhana practice.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:39 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Bakmoon
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Bakmoon » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:22 pm

I would agree with your assessment, Ven. sir. This is why one should practice under a teacher, as the teacher will be able to be a check against such wrong motivation. But as long as one has a competent teacher, I would say that the jhanas themselves are not a major matter of concern.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:13 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:27 am


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Kumara
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Kumara » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:09 am

I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

Sylvester
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Re: Jhana meditation and attachment to pleasure

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:30 am

It's OK Bhante.

I do hope you will be able to give up your qualms about jhanic sukha. MN 44 has a very positive re-assurance about how it is impervious to rāgānusayo.


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