Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BlackBird
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by BlackBird »

Coyote wrote: The fact is no-one can know, unless they try and fail - and even then it is not wasted energy. So personally, I wouldn't worry about it, given that even those who say arhantship is not possible say that anagami is.
See that's just ridiculous, saying that anagami is possible but arahantship isn't. Obviously these speculators know nothing of what is required of one to become an ariyan. They are worldlings, and they would do well to remember that they're steeped in avijja of the Buddha's teachings and are therefore in no position to be making comment upon what is and what is not possible when it comes to achieving the four stages of saint hood.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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floating_abu
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by floating_abu »

BlackBird wrote: They are worldlings
I would have thought they are human beings, like you and I might be :tongue:
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kirk5a
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by kirk5a »

Coyote wrote:Playing Devil's advocate here: Although the Dhamma is timeless, what if what the commentaries says is true - that it is not longer possible that someone can attain arhantship at this time? Given the enormous good kamma needed to be born in a time where the Buddha is teaching, why would it not be possible for there to be a cutoff point when it is no longer possible to become enlightened? Unless you want to posit that we have the same tendancies and good kamma as those born at the time of the Buddha. /devilsadvocateover.

The fact is no-one can know, unless they try and fail - and even then it is not wasted energy. So personally, I wouldn't worry about it, given that even those who say arhantship is not possible say that anagami is.
There's something confusing about the commentary regarding that. In a footnote on p.1805 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya, he says the commentary says there will be arahants who have attained the analytic knowledges for the first thousand years, dry-insight arahants for the second thousand, non-returners for the 3rd thousand, once-returners for the 4th thousand, and stream enterers for the 5th thousand. So going by that, no arahants should have appeared after somewhere around 1600 AD at the latest. And our current time frame would allow for non-returners.

But my puzzlement is that, by definition, even stream-enterers are destined for arahantship within 7 additional lifetimes at most. So let's say someone achieves stream entry in the last thousand year period. Then they must be destined for arahantship either within that thousand year period or later. In which case, would that not count as an arahant appearing?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Coyote
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Coyote »

kirk5a wrote:
But my puzzlement is that, by definition, even stream-enterers are destined for arahantship within 7 additional lifetimes at most. So let's say someone achieves stream entry in the last thousand year period. Then they must be destined for arahantship either within that thousand year period or later. In which case, would that not count as an arahant appearing?
I believe the commentary still allows for arahantship within the Deva realms, and this is where stream enterers will gain awakening. Similar to how there have been Anagami's in the pure abodes since the time of previous Buddhas, despite the Dhamma dying out.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
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acinteyyo
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by acinteyyo »

Vern Stevens wrote:The answer to your question lies inside you and not in the opinion of others.
:goodpost:
Aloka wrote: The best thing to do is to be at ease and keep on practising.
The Buddha said:

..the Dhamma is visible in the here-&-now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:)
:goodpost:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Viscid
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Viscid »

We should maintain a pragmatic attitude toward the views we hold:

If we cannot know if it is possible to become an arahant, we should act, regardless, as if it were. Any belief that full enlightenment isn't possible will only introduce doubt into our minds, and serves no other purpose than to limit ambition.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Aloka
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Aloka »

Talking About Enlightenment (Ajahn Jayasaro 7.26 minutes)


Kabouterke
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Kabouterke »

lewis454 wrote:
Yes, why would it not be possible?
I'm not sure, but I've heard some people say it's not.
You wouldn't be the first Buddhist to say this. Historically speaking, the question, "Is it still possible to become enlightened?" has been debated for centuries in Buddhism. This is a distinctly Mahayana theory, but the "Mappo" period of Buddhist history, also known also the "degenerate age of the Dharma" was predicted to be a preiod of unrest, famine, disease and corruption of people's minds and understanding of the Dharma. The world would be in such a terrible state that humanity would no longer be capable of enlightenment. In medieval Asia, this theory was so popular and so widely beleived that entirely new sects popped up using this idea as its foundation, such as the Pure Land School. Instead of working diligently towards enlightenment on this Earth, Pure Land says it is more productive to devote yourself to Amitabha Buddha and beseech him to help you be reborn in a Pure Land where those corrupting forces did not exist. Then you could work on Enlightenment. Pure Land Buddhism is one of the most popular and influential sects in East Asia nowadays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism

However, these ideas have been also historically debated in Theravada traditions which also predicted the decline of the Dharma.

How does this help you with you and your own life? Maybe I could make a parallel with your life and Buddhsim. ...Who on this forum can answer that question, when Buddhism itself can't even figure it out?

Idk. :shrug: Buddhist history is just good fun :)
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Aloka
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Aloka »

Why worry about it ? This is from some questions and answers with Ajahn Chah:
Question: I'm trying very hard in my practice but don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Ajahn Chah: This is very important. Don't try to get anywhere in the practice. The very desire to be free or to be enlightened will be the desire that prevents your freedom.

You can try as hard as you wish, practise ardently night and day, but if it is still with the desire to achieve in mind, you will never find peace. The energy from this desire will be a cause for doubt and restlessness. No matter how long or how hard you practise, wisdom will not arise from desire.

So, simply let go. Watch the mind and body mindfully but don't try to achieve anything. Don't cling even to the practice of enlightenment.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm


:anjali:
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Alex123
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Alex123 »

lewis454 wrote:In the way the Buddha talked about? Yes or no? Is there any 'evidence'? It also seems like a lot of different people mean a lot of different things by enlightenment.
How can we know for sure that anyone is or ever was Enlightened?
How can we know for sure that Enlightenment is possible?

I guess that we need to practice correctly in what we believe.
SarathW
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by SarathW »

26. The Visible Nibbāna
Once the brahmin Jāṇussoṇi approached the Blessed One … and said to him:44
“It is said, Master Gotama, ’Nibbāna is directly visible.’ In what way, Master Gotama, is
Nibbāna directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be
personally experienced by the wise?”
“When, brahmin, a person is impassioned with lust … depraved through hatred …
bewildered through delusion, overwhelmed and infatuated by delusion, then he plans for his
own harm, for the harm of others, for the harm of both; and he experiences in his mind suffering
and grief. But when lust, hatred, and delusion have been abandoned, he neither plans for his
own harm, nor for the harm of others, nor for the harm of both; and he does not experience in
his mind suffering and grief. In this way, brahmin, Nibbāna is directly visible, immediate,
inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be personally experienced by the wise.
“Since he experiences the complete destruction of lust, hatred, and delusion, in this way,
brahmin, Nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of
application, to be personally experienced by the wise.”45

http://www.urbandharma.org/pdf1/wh155An ... ikaya1.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Alex123
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by Alex123 »

Sutta wrote: when lust, hatred, and delusion have been abandoned, he neither plans for his own harm, nor for the harm of others, nor for the harm of both; and he does not experience in his mind suffering and grief. In this way, brahmin, Nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be personally experienced by the wise.
I hope that it is possible (despite having no proof and despite that it is impossible to prove this) and it is a beneficial to have faith in.
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PadmaPhala
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Re: Is it still possible to get enlightened?

Post by PadmaPhala »

no, we are not lightbulbs. it is however possible to awake to the highest dharma.
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