Yes, composure doesn't imply the mental state of jhana as described in the Visuddhimagga. However, it does fit very well into the Sutta type of jhana, which is possible even while walking. See Venāgapura (or Venāga) Sutta (A.i.180ff)polarbuddha101 wrote:The only problem with words like composure and poise is that the words don't carry any connotation that suggests one is meditating or in a deep meditative state and since samma samadhi is jhana it would be nice to have an english word that carries this connotation, but I don't think there really is any.
Samadhi (best English translation?)
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Has anyone suggested "mental development"? I was thinking of samadhi in terms of the 3-fold path.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
I think I'd still go for "composure", so in the case of the tripartite Path division this would mean composing the mind around the themes of integrative (samma-) effort, mindfulness, and jhana.Spiny Norman wrote:Has anyone suggested "mental development"? I was thinking of samadhi in terms of the 3-fold path.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Would there be an opposite to samadhi like distraction or division?
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Development or cultivation is a good translation for bhāvanā, which has a much wider meaning. The entire noble 8fold path is to be developed.Spiny Norman wrote:Has anyone suggested "mental development"? I was thinking of samadhi in terms of the 3-fold path.
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Asamādhi? I know this is not helpful! Haha! But it is a valid word found in the Suttas.John1122 wrote:Would there be an opposite to samadhi like distraction or division?
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
So what are the top choices of best translation of Samādhi? What about ekaggata?
"Concentration" has the advantage of being commonly understood, that is a Buddhist seeing the word concentration usually associates it as being translated from samaadhi.
I don't like how Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes uses different english words to translate the same pali word. for example, in step 11 of anapanasati he translates samādham cittam as "steadying the mind" , which made me think the pali text was using a different word than samaadhi. This is not to say he's right or wrong in doing that, I understand the problem of the being consistent with pali/english translation is you can miss subtle nuances in meaning.
What are the best candidates for ekaggata? i know the reasons people don't like one-pointed. In another thread Ven. Kumara was saying "one-placed" would be a better literal translation than one-pointed.
What about "one-focused" or "single-focused"? Less literal but clear in meaning, and still relatively easy to make connection with pali ekaggata.
What pali word is "unification of mind" associated with? I thought it was with samādhi but I thought I saw somewhere someone using that phrase for ekaggata.
"Concentration" has the advantage of being commonly understood, that is a Buddhist seeing the word concentration usually associates it as being translated from samaadhi.
I don't like how Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes uses different english words to translate the same pali word. for example, in step 11 of anapanasati he translates samādham cittam as "steadying the mind" , which made me think the pali text was using a different word than samaadhi. This is not to say he's right or wrong in doing that, I understand the problem of the being consistent with pali/english translation is you can miss subtle nuances in meaning.
What are the best candidates for ekaggata? i know the reasons people don't like one-pointed. In another thread Ven. Kumara was saying "one-placed" would be a better literal translation than one-pointed.
What about "one-focused" or "single-focused"? Less literal but clear in meaning, and still relatively easy to make connection with pali ekaggata.
What pali word is "unification of mind" associated with? I thought it was with samādhi but I thought I saw somewhere someone using that phrase for ekaggata.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Ease of back-translation shades into an argument to leave this term untranslated altogether...frank k wrote:So what are the top choices of best translation of Samādhi?...
"Concentration" has the advantage of being commonly understood, that is a Buddhist seeing the word concentration usually associates it as being translated from samaadhi.
So, this is where an ideal English term would cover the denotation as well as the various contextual connotations of a Pali term. Ideal fits are simply impossible, however, so various terms are sometimes chosen in order to capture these extended realms of meaning. I, however, would also prefer consistency over "ease of reading" choices, and to this end still prefer 'composure' for samadhi. In the example you give, the phrase would be 'composing the mind', which I think is quite serviceable.I don't like how Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes uses different english words to translate the same pali word. for example, in step 11 of anapanasati he translates samādham cittam as "steadying the mind" , which made me think the pali text was using a different word than samaadhi. This is not to say he's right or wrong in doing that, I understand the problem of the being consistent with pali/english translation is you can miss subtle nuances in meaning.
I remember that thread & thought it was a great comment:What are the best candidates for ekaggata? i know the reasons people don't like one-pointed. In another thread Ven. Kumara was saying "one-placed" would be a better literal translation than one-pointed.
Kumara wrote:To make it really short, here's the conclusion of my research into this: The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
I can fully appreciate what you mean. To add to that, he translates samādhijaṁ as "born of composure', which is the only variant among others by him that agrees with my conclusion, which is as follow:frank k wrote:I don't like how Thanissaro Bhikkhu sometimes uses different english words to translate the same pali word. for example, in step 11 of anapanasati he translates samādham cittam as "steadying the mind" , which made me think the pali text was using a different word than samaadhi. This is not to say he's right or wrong in doing that, I understand the problem of the being consistent with pali/english translation is you can miss subtle nuances in meaning.
samādhi (noun): (lit. ‘place-together’-ness) composure, collectedness
samāhita (participle of samādahati): composed, collected
samādhiyati (passive form of samādahati): be composed, be collected
samādahati: compose, collect
sammā·samādhi: proper composure, proper collectedness
Satisfies the principle of consistency, huh?
Just in case some wonder what's "samādhaṁ". It's a contracted form of samādahanta (composing); just as jānaṁ is the same as jānanta (knowing).
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
In the Samadhi Sutta it seems to encompass samatha/jhana, vipassana and sati:daverupa wrote:I think I'd still go for "composure", so in the case of the tripartite Path division this would mean composing the mind around the themes of integrative (samma-) effort, mindfulness, and jhana.Spiny Norman wrote:Has anyone suggested "mental development"? I was thinking of samadhi in terms of the 3-fold path.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Composure still seems to fit the bill, does it not? There are various wholesome ways to bracket the relevant praxis modules.Spiny Norman wrote:In the Samadhi Sutta it seems to encompass samatha/jhana, vipassana and sati:daverupa wrote:I think I'd still go for "composure", so in the case of the tripartite Path division this would mean composing the mind around the themes of integrative (samma-) effort, mindfulness, and jhana.Spiny Norman wrote:Has anyone suggested "mental development"? I was thinking of samadhi in terms of the 3-fold path.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
I wish I knew what that meant.daverupa wrote:...bracket the relevant praxis modules.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Frame the applicable practices. Group the variables that matter. Compose (!) the mind around the pertinent themes.Spiny Norman wrote:I wish I knew what that meant.daverupa wrote:...bracket the relevant praxis modules.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
The word is fine, if understood correctly. There are many meanings for the English word concentration. How do you understand it in terms of meditation? Since meditation is mental work, an English user in meeting this translation is most likely to associate it with its meanings that are related to the mind, such asfrank k wrote:"Concentration" has the advantage of being commonly understood, that is a Buddhist seeing the word concentration usually associates it as being translated from samaadhi.
Based on my observation, most Buddhist meditators I know do something that basically follows the first and second definition, hoping to achieve a state that generally agrees with the synonyms listed at number 5. They may do what the third and fourth definitions say too at a greater intensity, especially when they are eager to get to number 5. Such an understanding doesn't agree with the literal meaning of samadhi as shown in an earlier post.1. act or power of focusing one’s attention or mental ability (Concise Oxford Dictionary (Ninth Edition), Oxford University Press 1995)
2. act or process of concentrating, especially the fixing of close, undivided attention (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2007, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009.)
3. a process in which you put a lot of attention, energy etc into a particular activity (Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, Pearson Education Limited 2003)
4. great and constant diligence and attention (WordNet 3.0 Copyright 2006 by Princeton University)
5. (synonyms) absorption, engrossment, immersion (Ibid.)
That's true if we are interpreting these words according to the Visuddhimagga variety of jhana, but they don't fit well into the jhana of the Suttas. You may refer to the matter at Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas (http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=5761)frank k wrote:What about "one-focused" or "single-focused"? Less literal but clear in meaning, and still relatively easy to make connection with pali ekaggata.
The Chinese translation for samādhi, 定, can mean many things: calm, stable, fixed, settled, definite. (Vicon Chinese(S)-English Dictionary) However, when we have it in the context of 心, which is citta in Pāli, the meaning is decisively limited to ‘calm, stable, settled”. In no way does 定 mean concentration.
I think you meant "cittassa ekaggata". You're probably referring to MLDB. In CDB, Ven Bodhi "reverted" to one-pointedness for ekaggata though, and used unification for ekodibhāva. It seems obvious to me that he still held the Visuddhimagga idea of jhāna.frank k wrote:What pali word is "unification of mind" associated with? I thought it was with samādhi but I thought I saw somewhere someone using that phrase for ekaggata.
Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)
Kumara wrote:I think you meant "cittassa ekaggata". You're probably referring to MLDB. In CDB, Ven Bodhi "reverted" to one-pointedness for ekaggata though, and used unification for ekodibhāva. It seems obvious to me that he still held the Visuddhimagga idea of jhāna.frank k wrote:What pali word is "unification of mind" associated with? I thought it was with samādhi but I thought I saw somewhere someone using that phrase for ekaggata.
I'm curious, Bhante. Doesn't DN 9's listing of how perceptions cease and others arise through training suggest singularity of perception in the jhānas? Certainly, I would not dispute your lexical analysis about cittassa ekaggatā as being a reference to composure or stillness. But is the Vsm conception of the jhānas as being absorbed bereft of sutta antecedents? It goes back to your earlier post that this quality is one of "unified knowing: to be aware of all sense bases at the same time" - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p232339
I'm sure you're aware of the compound in DN 9 - kāmasaññā. This is said to cease in first jhāna. What does it mean?
Some have argued that it means sensual perception, meaning that kāma functions adjectivally in the singular (ie with sensual desire). This interpretation entails the compound being interpreted as a kammadhāraya, which is problematic. The rule for kammadhāraya compounds is that if the compound is parsed, kāma must be in the singular to agree with saññā; we know that saññā is in the singular, owing to the singular verb nirujjhati. That does not tally with the first jhāna formula that uses the plural kāmā.
That leaves only the genitive tappurisa. Tappurisas being what they are allow the first member to be parsed into the plural, since only stem forms are used for the first member of tappurisas. This gives "perception of kāmā", agreeing nicely with the standard seclusion formula.
I'm not sure if the Vsm interpretation is as off the mark as it's commonly believed.