The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
daverupa
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:- the Nikayas do not contain that level of detail about them.
Though to be fair there isn't much detail in the suttas on technique for anapanasati either - basic stuff like whether eyes should be open or closed, whether attention should be at nostrils or abdomen, etc.
When comparing the instructions we do have for anapanasati with those for kasinas in the Nikayas, there is a stark imbalance. The steps of anapanasati are quite clear in contrast, and for example confusion over the idiom "parimukham" isn't a fault of the instructions.

Attending to nose or abdomen is a created dilemma, as is eyes open or closed. The instructions don't mention whether the legs, when crossed, should be left atop right or the other way 'round, either. They don't mention if the tongue should be on the roof of the mouth or elsewhere. These are altogether incidental worries (which, by the way, we might ask of kasinas as well, with a similar lack of answers).

They are simply not given equal attention in the Nikayas; after all, the Samyutta Nikaya has an anapanasati samyutta, but no mention of kasinas at all...

:shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

daverupa wrote:When comparing the instructions we do have for anapanasati with those for kasinas in the Nikayas, there is a stark imbalance. The steps of anapanasati are quite clear in contrast, and for example confusion over the idiom "parimukham" isn't a fault of the instructions.
The instructions are only clear because we've been told how to utilize them thanks to the commentaries of scholars and teachers. If we were completely new to Buddhism, and read a line like “Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’", I doubt most of us would immediately know what to do.

And I don't think kasina meditation is more complicated. It seems to be centered on "I know, I see", or rather clearly knowing and seeing each element or color, and acknowledging that none of them are self. It's relatively straightforward when you look at it within the context of the rest of the teachings.
They are simply not given equal attention in the Nikayas; after all, the Samyutta Nikaya has an anapanasati samyutta, but no mention of kasinas at all...
"Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. [...] When recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception. [...] And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception."
-- SN 22.79
daverupa
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

mettafuture wrote:The instructions are only clear because we've been told how to utilize them thanks to the commentaries of scholars and teachers. If we were completely new to Buddhism, and read a line like “Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’", I doubt most of us would immediately know what to do. And I don't think kasina meditation is more complicated.
It's a good point; additionally, the primary source materials describing anapanasati and it's relationship to satipatthana far outstrip what exists for kasinas in the Nikayas.

And that is a definition of perception, not a kasina meditation reference.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

daverupa wrote:It's a good point; additionally, the primary source materials describing anapanasati and it's relationship to satipatthana far outstrip what exists for kasinas in the Nikayas.
The frequency in which something is referenced shouldn't be used to measure its worth.
daverupa
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

mettafuture wrote:
daverupa wrote:It's a good point; additionally, the primary source materials describing anapanasati and it's relationship to satipatthana far outstrip what exists for kasinas in the Nikayas.
The frequency in which something is referenced shouldn't be used to measure its worth.
:thinking:

It isn't mere frequency. I'm not measuring worth.

There are repeated references to anapanasati in numerous contexts, and the manner in which it fulfills satipatthana is clearly laid out. The Buddha is said to have practiced anapanasati frequently, for example spending the Rains doing so.

I do not see where he is said to have practiced with kasinas in these ways. They form part of a list in MN 77 & DN 33, leaving the AN quote as the best reference because there, at least, we can find a passing instruction with respect to disenchantment & dispassion for comparison (yet we get this instruction with anapanasati as well).

There is simply no parallel.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

daverupa wrote:There is simply no parallel.
Just a moment ago you claimed that "the Samyutta Nikaya has an anapanasati samyutta, but no mention of kasinas at all...", and yet the kasinas are mentioned in SN 22.79, and the entire Dhatu-samyutta book (SN 14) is dedicated to the first 4 kasinas.
The Buddha is said to have practiced anapanasati frequently...
He sure did. And yet he took the time to teach other types of meditation.
chownah
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by chownah »

mettafuture wrote: "Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. [...] When recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception. [...] And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception."
-- SN 22.79
Mettafuture,
It seems you are presenting this Sutta quote as an indication that kasinas are mentioned there. Upon reading the Sutta it seems obvious that the perceiving of colors it mentions has nothing to do with kasinas at all and is just an explanation of what 'perception' means. It seems that you consider any mention of color whatever to be a talk about kasinas. Is this your stance?....that any mention of color whatever is a talk about kasinas?

I've been reading some of the links people are providing (thanks to all for the links and thoughts) and it seems that the contemplation of the colors is pretty simple and there seems to be no reason why it need be restricted to Buddhist venues in that it seems it can be explained and done with no reference to anything strictly Buddhist in origin or nature. Also, one of the links mentioned that kasina meditation is very much like self hypnosis. Can you explain the difference between kasina contemplation and self hypnosis if in fact you do see a difference?

chownah
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

chownah wrote:It seems you are presenting this Sutta quote as an indication that kasinas are mentioned there.
Yes I am.
Upon reading the Sutta it seems obvious that the perceiving of colors it mentions has nothing to do with kasinas at all and is just an explanation of what 'perception' means.
Perception is being explained within the context of the kasinas.
It seems that you consider any mention of color whatever to be a talk about kasinas. Is this your stance?....that any mention of color whatever is a talk about kasinas?
The 5th kasina is blue, the 6th is yellow, the 7th is red, and the 8th is white.

"And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception."
Can you explain the difference between kasina contemplation and self hypnosis if in fact you do see a difference?
No I won't explain it because it has nothing to do with the original topic of this discussion. If you'd like to discuss and debate the color kasinas, you should probably start a new thread. Personally, I only meditate on the first 4 kasinas (the elements), metta, and the breath.
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Sekha
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Sekha »

mettafuture wrote:So why is it that Western Buddhists focus on just 1 or 2 of these objects (eg. anapanasati and metta)? Is it because our dhamma teachers don't feel that contemplating the elements or recalling the qualities of the Buddha could be compatible with our cultural sensibilities? Perhaps they aren't. But if that's the case, maybe we need to change something about ourselves rather than continue to selectively disregard large portions of the dhamma.
The very weak point of your assertion here is that you consider that the public should adapt itself to the teaching (which is a very common approach in Asia, adopted by a majority of native monk teachers, but is totally against the most basic laws of pedagogy and is exactly the opposite of the example that the Buddha himself gave), rather than the teaching be wisely formatted to be useful for the public. It does not make sense. You cannot change the whole western culture to make it adaptable to the ways in which asian buddhist teachers like to teach. Remember the Buddha did not teach all the suttas to all his disciples. Many of them are reported to have become arahants through one single short teaching they practiced with, which demonstrates that all the techniques taught by the Buddha are not necessary to everyone.

mettafuture wrote: I also feel that it may be a mistake to introduce breath meditation to every new Buddhist as their first meditation object.
Well, there are not many cases of people complaining about this. And even if there are, they are still in number small enough to consider it acceptable for a teacher who doesn't have the time or capacities to make personal evaluations and tailor a personalized teaching for everyone to choose the breath by default.
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

Sekha wrote:The very weak point of your assertion here is that you consider that the public should adapt itself to the teaching
Practice can't do any good if we insist on clinging to the sense pleasures of our cultures.
You cannot change the whole western culture to make it adaptable to the ways in which asian buddhist teachers like to teach.
That wasn't my point. My point: We shouldn't selfishly care only about the meditations that appeal to the majority. More meditation objects should be presented as options because there may be people who could benefit from them.
Remember the Buddha did not teach all the suttas to all his disciples.
337 suttas in the Tipitaka directly address the laity.
Sekha wrote:
mettafuture wrote:I also feel that it may be a mistake to introduce breath meditation to every new Buddhist as their first meditation object.
Well, there are not many cases of people complaining about this.
Good.
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Mr Man
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Mr Man »

I guess teachers can only teach what they know, what they are familiar with and what they have been taught. I'm sure most legitimate teachers would teach what they have found useful and what they would perceive as being useful to others.

Possibly some practices also require a greater supervision and this isn't practicable in you average teacher/lay student relationship. Also possibly some teaches are guiding other practices but this is on a more ad-hoc basis.

I imagine many lay theravadins practice some kind of reflection on the qualities of the triple gem, brahma viharas, sila, mortality, elements etc. and I'm sure guidance can be found if one has the inclination.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote: They are simply not given equal attention in the Nikayas; after all, the Samyutta Nikaya has an anapanasati samyutta, but no mention of kasinas at all...
Yes, anapanasati is referred to more frequently in the suttas. Though most references to samatha, samadhi and the jhanas don't specify a meditation object atall.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Spiny Norman »

chownah wrote: ....it seems that the contemplation of the colors is pretty simple and there seems to be no reason why it need be restricted to Buddhist venues in that it seems it can be explained and done with no reference to anything strictly Buddhist in origin or nature.
All that applies to breathing meditation too. ;)
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daverupa
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote: ....it seems that the contemplation of the colors is pretty simple and there seems to be no reason why it need be restricted to Buddhist venues in that it seems it can be explained and done with no reference to anything strictly Buddhist in origin or nature.
All that applies to breathing meditation too. ;)
This is precisely why having a method "satipatthana-d" for us in the Nikayas is so valuable.
SN 54.6 wrote:"There is that mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, Arittha. I don't say that there isn't. But as to how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is brought in detail to its culmination, listen and pay close attention. I will speak."
Last edited by daverupa on Wed May 29, 2013 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Sekha
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Sekha »

mettafuture wrote:
Sekha wrote:The very weak point of your assertion here is that you consider that the public should adapt itself to the teaching
Practice can't do any good if we insist on clinging to the sense pleasures of our cultures.
I think it is worthwhile here to re-situate what we are talking about: "western" meditation teachers, by which I assume is understood meditation teachers who teach primarily or to a large extent to westerners. If we are indeed in this context, it must not be forgotten that those teachers are constantly in contact with "non-buddhists first-timers", and therefore there is no room in this situation for discussing what the students should be like. The average person living in a capitalist industrialized country is generally a hedonist, because hedonism is a key characteristic of capitalist societies since Edward Bernays introduced it in the 1920s (by the way few Asians know hedonism had merely a marginalized place in "western" culture prior to that). So any good meditation teacher has to take this fact in consideration and make his teaching easily acceptable.

Your remark would be appropriate in the context of buddhist lay people learning meditation over an extended period of time, like for example lay people following Pa Auk teachings in Malaysia or Taiwan. It is not so in the context of western countries. This process happens naturally as a result of practice, and it is not reasonable to expect it to have already happened in the first place. If it doesn't happen at all though, the practice should be questioned seriously.

mettafuture wrote:
You cannot change the whole western culture to make it adaptable to the ways in which asian buddhist teachers like to teach.
That wasn't my point.
Well, the fact that people should be different seemed very much to be your point in the quote I just commented above.

mettafuture wrote: My point: We shouldn't selfishly care only about the meditations that appeal to the majority.
Can you explain what you mean by this? I don't see how caring for the majority of people is being selfish.
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