The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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marc108
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by marc108 »

Lazy_eye wrote:I think one of the advantages of Dhamma in the West is that we actually do have a fair amount of choice. If you're inclined to a more devotional type of practice, you can find it; if you're more of a secularist or rationalist, you can find it; if you prefer a meditation-centered approach you can find it, etc etc. Pretty much every strain of Buddhism is represented, especially in the major urban areas where you can find a traditional Thai Wat in one neighborhood and a Western-style dharma center in the next.

I'm not sure the traditional Buddhist cultures in Asia offer a similar range of choice. Though my experience is limited (and based only on what I saw at Mahayana temples in East Asia), my impression is that devotions and prostrations are far more the norm, and meditation for laypeople a relatively new thing.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Spiny Norman »

mettafuture wrote:My main issue is with how some teachers don't inform students of the meditative options that are available.
Yes, I think that is a problem in some cases, and I think beginners would benefit from a clear introduction to the different approaches that are available.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by chownah »

I think that colors can be used as an object for meditation. Can someone give me a link to a Sutta where the Buddha teaches the proper way to use color for meditation?
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

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Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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daverupa
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:I think that colors can be used as an object for meditation. Can someone give me a link to a Sutta where the Buddha teaches the proper way to use color for meditation?
chownah
Something along these lines, though mentioned only a handful of times in the Nikayas:
AN 10.29 wrote:"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by chownah »

Thanks Sekha and daverupa,
To me the Sutta reference doesn't seem to be describing a way to meditate. I thought that colors would be on the list of 40 meditation objects which Mettafuture mentioned....maybe they are not on the list. Anyone know? Is the list available somewhere? I want to see how the Buddha teaches what is the proper way to meditate using these objects.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Sekha »

The ten kasinas listed at AN 10.25 feature among the 40 meditation objects. I believe this suttas does describe how to meditate with the kasinas, but it is very succinct and not easily understandable to the neophyte, as it is the case for many instructions given by the Buddha. It is the only set of instructions dealing explicitly with the kasinas you will find the suttas. What the Visuddhimagga has to say about them is imo not convincing.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamma%E1% ... Dh%C4%81na
Last edited by Sekha on Mon May 27, 2013 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

chownah wrote:I want to see how the Buddha teaches what is the proper way to meditate using these objects.
Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw and Wikihow offer an interpretation of the instructions found in the suttas:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf
http://www.wikihow.com/Practice-Kasina-Meditation
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by daverupa »

mettafuture wrote:
chownah wrote:I want to see how the Buddha teaches what is the proper way to meditate using these objects.
Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw and Wikihow offer an interpretation of the instructions found in the suttas:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/know-see.pdf
http://www.wikihow.com/Practice-Kasina-Meditation
Rather, those found in the Visuddhimagga, etc. - the Nikayas do not contain that level of detail about them.

The Buddha doesn't seem to have mentioned them often, perhaps not at all. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

daverupa wrote:Rather, those found in the Visuddhimagga, etc. - the Nikayas do not contain that level of detail about them.
The Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta (MN 77) explains how to contemplate the color kasinas.

Here's an excerpt on the fifth kasina:

"Not perceiving form internally, one sees forms externally, blue, of blue colour, blue in appearance, with blue luminosity. Just like a flax flower, which is blue, of blue colour, blue in appearance, with blue luminosity, or just like Benares cloth smoothened on both sides, which is blue, of blue colour, blue in appearance, with blue luminosity; so too, not perceiving form internally, one sees forms externally…with blue luminosity; by transcending them, one perceives thus: ‘I know, I see.’ This is the fifth base for transcendence..."

And the summary:

"Again, Udāyin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to develop the ten kasina bases. One contemplates the earth kasina above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. Another contemplates the water-kasina… Another contemplates the fire-kasina… Another contemplates the air-kasina… Another contemplates the blue-kasina… Another contemplates the yellow-kasina… Another contemplates the red-kasina… Another contemplates the white-kasina… Another contemplates the space-kasina… Another contemplates the consciousness-kasina above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the perfection and consummation of direct knowledge"

Instructions for the first 4 kasinas (the elements) can also be found in the Cūḷataṇhāsankhaya Sutta (MN 37), the Dīghanakha Sutta (MN 74), and the Dhātuvibhanga Sutta (MN 140).
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Sekha »

:goodpost:

to understand AN 10.25 directly in Pali: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 0-025.html
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:- the Nikayas do not contain that level of detail about them.
Though to be fair there isn't much detail in the suttas on technique for anapanasati either - basic stuff like whether eyes should be open or closed, whether attention should be at nostrils or abdomen, etc.
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Spiny Norman »

mettafuture wrote:
daverupa wrote:Rather, those found in the Visuddhimagga, etc. - the Nikayas do not contain that level of detail about them.
The Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta (MN 77) explains how to contemplate the color kasinas.
This thread is on the kasinas: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2041
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

Sekha wrote::goodpost:

to understand AN 10.25 directly in Pali: http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 0-025.html
:hello:

The excerpts were translated by Nanamoli / Bodhi.

A dhamma talk on the Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta, and other suttas from the Majjhima Nikaya, can be found here.
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