The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote: I never said teaching anapanasati to everyone was inaccurate. I said that anapanasati may not have been the meditation object that the Buddha wanted the laity to start with because there's little evidence in the Tipitaka to suggest this. But you do find several suttas where the Buddha prescribes devotional practices to the laity.
And you also find the Buddha chewing out Sariputta for not teaching the hardcore Dhamma to a layperson. We find in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta lay people are very actively doing that practice, which is a great more than mere devotional practices. That monks over the last 100 years have seen fit to teach the laity more hard core practices is a good thing. Also, I'd be a bit more careful about maligning lay meditation teachers because they do not quite fit your idea of how things should be.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

reflection wrote:@mettafuture, I think we agree on the essentials indeed. Perhaps its just our experience with teachers that differs. A nice sutta is this one, about picking up the right object at the right time.
I'll give the Suda Sutta a gander.
tiltbillings wrote:
mettafuture wrote:Yes it has. They've given up their hair, clothes, homes, possessions, etc, many things that householders are still attached to.
And what do they get in turn?
A frugal life with fewer of the material and sensual distractions that can impede practice.
And all monks teach the Dhamma in the pure way that you seem to think it should be taught? And all lay teachers dilute the Dhamma from what you think it should be?
I'm objecting to the teachers who do dilute the Dhamma.
And you also find the Buddha chewing out Sariputta for not teaching the hardcore Dhamma to a layperson. -- I'd be a bit more careful about maligning lay meditation teachers because they do not quite fit your idea of how things should be.
Your start your reply by saying that the Buddha wanted his teachings presented in a certain way, and then you end your reply by saying that I'm the one who wants the teachings presented in a certain way.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mettafuture wrote:Yes it has. They've given up their hair, clothes, homes, possessions, etc, many things that householders are still attached to.
And what do they get in turn?
A frugal life with fewer of the material and sensual distractions that can impede practice.
For those monks who want and understand that. That a person is a monstic is no guarantee.
And all monks teach the Dhamma in the pure way that you seem to think it should be taught? And all lay teachers dilute the Dhamma from what you think it should be?
I'm objecting to the teachers who do dilute the Dhamma.
And who determines that the Dhamma has been diluted?
And you also find the Buddha chewing out Sariputta for not teaching the hardcore Dhamma to a layperson. -- I'd be a bit more careful about maligning lay meditation teachers because they do not quite fit your idea of how things should be.
Your start your reply by saying that the Buddha wanted his teachings presented in a certain way, and then you end your reply by saying that I'm the one who wants the teachings presented in a certain way.
I started by showing that the Buddha was not limiting his teachings to devotionalism for the laity as you have suggested.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote: But does it really make sense to skip developing at least a rudimentary understanding of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects before jumping ahead to the breath?
Interestingly enough, in doing breath awareness the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects all come directly into play. As one's practice progresses these things become clearer and more direct, enlivening the teachings, bringing them beyond mere theory and doctrine. And of course, it helps to have -- if not actually a requirement -- a good teacher, lay or monastic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

tiltbillings wrote:And who determines that the Dhamma has been diluted?
Buddhist scholars.

"Through the centuries the most popular meditation subjects among lay Buddhists have probably been the six recollections (anussati): of the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, morality, generosity, and the devas."
--- Bhikkhi Bodhi, In The Buddha's Words.

Considering that the recollections have been taught for "centuries", it would be kind of strange for a teacher to not mention the them, wouldn't it?
I started by showing that the Buddha was not limiting his teachings to devotionalism for the laity as you have suggested.
Where did I say that?
Interestingly enough, in doing breath awareness the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects all come directly into play.
Right. Or you can meditate on these objects individually, as the Buddha suggests in the Satipatthana Sutta. One way isn't particularly better than the other. The Buddha laid forth many paths to enlightenment, and each path should be presented as an option.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And who determines that the Dhamma has been diluted?
Buddhist scholars.
And they are all in complete agreement? Buddhist scholar/meditation practitioners have also suggested otherwise, in line with the Buddha's admonition to Sariputta.


One way isn't particularly better than the other. The Buddha laid forth many paths to enlightenment, and each path should be presented as an option.
You answered your own question. There are differing ways to practice. If one does not want to do vipassana, for example, then one finds a teacher who will teach something else.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

tiltbillings wrote:And they are all in complete agreement?
Name one who doesn't agree that the recollections should be taught.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And they are all in complete agreement?
Name one who doesn't agree that the recollections should be taught.
No one is saying that the "recollections" shouldn't be taught, but are you arguing that they are necessary, that one must do those as a formal meditation practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

tiltbillings wrote:
mettafuture wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And they are all in complete agreement?
Name one who doesn't agree that the recollections should be taught.
No one is saying that the "recollections" shouldn't be taught, but are you arguing that they are necessary, that one must do those as a formal meditation practice?
"The Buddha laid forth many paths to enlightenment, and each path should be presented as an option."
-- Me, 2 hours ago.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote: "The Buddha laid forth many paths to enlightenment, and each path should be presented as an option."
-- Me, 2 hours ago.
The OP:
  • So why is it that Western Buddhists focus on just 1 or 2 of these objects (eg. anapanasati and metta)? Is it because our dhamma teachers don't feel that contemplating the elements or recalling the qualities of the Buddha could be compatible with our cultural sensibilities? Perhaps they aren't. But if that's the case, maybe we need to change something about ourselves rather than continue to selectively disregard large portions of the dhamma.

    I also feel that it may be a mistake to introduce breath meditation to every new Buddhist as their first meditation object. I've heard people try to make the point that anapanasati can fulfill all four satipatthanas, therefore special attention doesn't need to be given to the individual satipatthanas. But does it really make sense to skip developing at least a rudimentary understanding of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects before jumping ahead to the breath?
So, one can teach the Dhamma is a variety of differing way. And it would seem that the OP is worrying about nothing, really.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by Lazy_eye »

I think one of the advantages of Dhamma in the West is that we actually do have a fair amount of choice. If you're inclined to a more devotional type of practice, you can find it; if you're more of a secularist or rationalist, you can find it; if you prefer a meditation-centered approach you can find it, etc etc. Pretty much every strain of Buddhism is represented, especially in the major urban areas where you can find a traditional Thai Wat in one neighborhood and a Western-style dharma center in the next.

I'm not sure the traditional Buddhist cultures in Asia offer a similar range of choice. Though my experience is limited (and based only on what I saw at Mahayana temples in East Asia), my impression is that devotions and prostrations are far more the norm, and meditation for laypeople a relatively new thing.
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

Lazy_eye wrote:I think one of the advantages of Dhamma in the West is that we actually do have a fair amount of choice. If you're inclined to a more devotional type of practice, you can find it; if you're more of a secularist or rationalist, you can find it; if you prefer a meditation-centered approach you can find it, etc etc.
I completely agree. The fact that the Dhamma has teachings for every type of person is a testament to the Buddha's wisdom and genius. My main issue is with how some teachers don't inform students of the meditative options that are available. I had to discover the teachings on the recollections and the elements on my own.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by tiltbillings »

mettafuture wrote:
Lazy_eye wrote:I think one of the advantages of Dhamma in the West is that we actually do have a fair amount of choice. If you're inclined to a more devotional type of practice, you can find it; if you're more of a secularist or rationalist, you can find it; if you prefer a meditation-centered approach you can find it, etc etc.
I completely agree. The fact that the Dhamma has teachings for every type of person is a testament to the Buddha's wisdom and genius. My main issue is with how some teachers don't inform students of the meditative options that are available. I had to discover the teachings on the recollections and the elements on my own.
You might find this book of interest:

http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/book-revi ... -u-pandita
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by marc108 »

I'm not sure how much this matches up to reality, but I think that the laity at large during the time of the Buddha likely was not practicing with the same scope and intensity as the laity is now. The serious modern day practitioner is probably much closer in terms of practice to a monastic than they were in the distant past. We have full and instant access to the entire Canon, we have great masters, both lay and monastic, giving advanced teachings in prolific amounts to the public... etc etc

mettafuture wrote:I had to discover the teachings on the recollections and the elements on my own.

I don't mean this in an offensive way, but perhaps that is just a result of your limited exposure? I said this before but nearly all of the lay and monastic teachers giving teachings to the west are giving a fairly diverse range of teachings on meditation.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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mettafuture
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Re: The Breath, and Cherry-Picking for Cultural Convenience

Post by mettafuture »

tiltbillings wrote:You might find this book of interest:

http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/book-revi ... -u-pandita
I'll check it out.
marc108 wrote:I don't mean this in an offensive way, but perhaps that is just a result of your limited exposure?
When I started practice, my teachers only taught breath meditation. Many important topics were first introduced to me through the suttas.

"For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone."
-- Maha-parinibbana Sutta (DN 16)
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