A drug that helps meditating ?

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Lazy_eye
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by Lazy_eye »

perkele wrote:
Lazy_Eye wrote:It's an interesting question you raise. I guess one thought that occurs to me is that if jhana states could really be induced by a drug, this would show that mind states are physical brain states, nama and rupa are identical, and therefore the aims of Buddhism can be accomplished by the right cocktail of pharmaceutical interventions. The only remaining reason for going after jhana the "old-fashioned way" would be to prevent damage to your liver!
How stupid to think in such a way, even encouraging such bullshit.
I'm not encouraging it. We are having a discussion and I'm simply noting some possible implications of dxm_dxm's line of thinking.

If you will see my earlier post in the thread, you'll see I made a point similar to yours.
Fortunately, even dxm_dxm knows better:
dxm_dxm wrote:Another thing - the goal in budhism is not developing concentration meditation, it is achieving enlightment through insight meditation.
And what is the culmination of insight? That all things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. All states are anicca, dukkha, anatta. To cut off all craving and clinging for them and be free.
Yet some people think that jhana is Nibbana, only cultivating ever more craving and clinging for some special pleasent, blissful state, even to the point of wanting to reach it by any means, even drugs.
[/quote]

Actually, though, the aim of Buddhism is the end of dukkha (see the fourth noble truth).

If mind can be manipulated at will using various kinds of medication, why bother cultivating insight at all? You can reduce your suffering and engineer happiness through pharmaceutical means, and the brain will cease working at death, bringing instant parinibbana.
Even to encourage each other in such thinking... :thinking:, unthinkable.
I think we can have an intelligent discussion and skip the rhetorical posturing. How about you demonstrate instead why jhana attained by means of cough syrup is not really jhana?
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Zenainder
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by Zenainder »

dxm_dxm wrote:Jhana is not induced by the drug, the drug just helps meditation by taking your body out of the way. Besides the body problem it somehow improves concentration, by a lot. Getting into first jhana into 2 breaths is something superhuman. I do not know if advanced monks are able to do that cause of been advanced or if it is something posible only on the drug. I can not enter first jhana after 2 breaths withaught the drug for sure lol. I am very, very sure about at least the first jhana. There is out of the question been some similar effect of the drug.

Another thing about it: the dosage has to be right. If the dossage is right you enter jhana instanlty. If it is too high it is imposible to meditate because the mind will be very agitated.


I am not encouraging it but this is something totally unknown. I am the only one that knows this at least on the internet and this is the only drug from hundreds that exists that can do this. I don't expect to see this drug been given to all the monks on a regular basis from now on lol but I decided to post it so I am not the only one having the information now

After I will become advance at meditating I will take this drug a couple of times and also try it while doing vipassana. It is highly unprobable but if it boosts your meditating at the same ratio as it does in a novice that would be something.

Something intrigues me. If I am able to get into first jhana in 2 breaths then I should be sky rocketing to the 4th jhana in 5 hours. Why did it take 1 month of this to get just to the second ?

@lazy eye - that is is vipassana meditation
If this drug proves effective in vipassana I'll be even more carefull not to die too soon.

Scientist should do a couple of brain scans and research on this highly underestimated and ignored drug.
dxm,

As I've come to understand the jhana 1 teachings, you may be able to "attain" it, but there is a matter of mastering it. Which does mean instantly entering and leaving it, also remaining within it for a set period of time. At least that is what I've learned.

I personally do not encourage drug induced states as it creates an unskillful facade and ultimiately delusion of "progress". Need I point out that all suffering and bliss is internal and a drug induced state is an exterior device. From the start of the question, can bliss by means of meditation be attained through drugs: no... its a contradiction of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism.

Be blissed,

:anjali:
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by dxm_dxm »

fatigue, apathy, flashbacks, and constipation. Over a quarter reported insomnia, nightmares, anhedonia, impaired memory, attention deficit and decreased libido. Rarer side effects included panic attacks, impaired learning, tremor, jaundice, urticaria (hives) and myalgia. Frequent and long-term usage at very high doses could possibly lead to toxic psychosis and other permanent psychological problems.[1]
Again am not encouraging it but... this is more bull**t than the classic anti-drug commercials against marijuana. I have experienced a part of the above at very, very low intensity and only while on the drug. I was never bothered by side effects. Beside that, none of them is proven by studies. An objective analise can be found here http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq ... ects.shtml
When you first came on here dxm I was wondering if your name referred to the drug found in cough syrup that teenagers often "robo-trip" on.
Picked it so that I am imposible to be found by any romanians while googling. They would burn me on the stake :D lol seriously did not want anybody who knows me to find out about me been a budhist so I changed my nickname in this. About teenagers robo trippin on it lol, you can see why the nr1 psichadellic is so underestimated. It is also due to it;s price and avaliability.
Also, you are taking dxm way too often. Basically you're saying that you have been overdosing on cough syrup every few days for a month in order to meditate, when you think about it that way, doesn't it seem rather silly?
Not only am I taking it too often but I am also using pretty high doses :D

I know this is not good and I quited all drugs for some time. I even quit weed and used to smoke non stop every day. I knew I had to do this a long time ago but I was not powerfull enough in my meditation to be detached enough to do it. This is the only drug that I am still using at the moment. Yawares had a nice post that helped in this aspect in her daily dharma thread but I can not find it. It was about a meditator who is using intoxicants is not a true meditator, so bad I can't find it.

I quited dxm for a time but I decided to do this "study" on meditation and dxm because I still belived something could be found there. I tried this before with no succes because of the way of practice and the wrong dosage. Half of the reason why I started is this, the other half is using this first reason as a justification to do it again cause I love it so much.

I know what is good and bad, my problem is the classic: been strong and developed enough to do what is good and not do what is bad


About the fact that it is not jhana because on the drug... :

I can asure you it is jhana because it is identical to what I experience when sober only that I am not able to get so far and do it so easy. A thing that takes out all of the debate is that it improved my sober meditation a lot. Told you where I was before the 1 month of doing this and where I am now. On this drug you do the same steps and the proces is extremelly clear, like sober but faster and more powerfull. There are no side effects of this drug like halucinations and stuff like that to make the experience even 1% more impure, if you use the right dosage. Saying it is not jhana cause it can;t be jhana on a drug is like saying it can;t be jhana in a sensual isolation chamber because it's not jhana in a sensual isolation chamber. It's not jhana in the monastery eather, cause the monastery is a place made to be suited for meditating. I also pointed out that this is the only drug out of hundreds existing witch can have this effect. I haven't tried them all but looking at their proprieties it is highly unprobable that there is another that could improve meditation even a little.

Of course this drug must have limitations but at least until the second jhana in concentration meditation there were none and I asume there will be non until the 4th also.
Do you know what it is about? Thinking about "ratio"... and so on, getting getting getting, getting it fast. You don't even know what you are after. You are missing the point.
I can see your point but I am after improving my concentration. Of course I am gona quit the drug and concentrate on vipassana meditation more but if I would be able to get at 4th jhana faster, by any means I would be very happy. I know you should be as detached as posible and that is the only way to walk the path but most people talk about this like they are and all of us should be totally detached like an arhant already in order to walk the path. I am not totally detached and I know that. One day hopefully I will be but for the moment I am just trying to be.
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reflection
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by reflection »

Well, you are wrong. It ain't jhana. I have explained why, but of course you will not be convinced by me as you have already convinced yourself of something else. Doesn't mean I am wrong, though. So, if anybody in the future reads this thread and might be interested, I hope they will trust me: don't be tempted, dxm_dxm is mistaken and clouded. Meditation is to be done without drugs or it won't be meditation. It is not cultivation of mind, but mere drugging.

The fifth precept is there with a reason. I don't mean to enforce it on anybody of course, but those who consider drugs to be an aid in meditation should seriously reconsider why it's there.

dxm, you justifying your use and saying "of course I will quit (but not now)" sounds like the classical addict, I hope you realize that.

Keep well,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Thu May 23, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by dxm_dxm »

The fifth percept is there because drugs lead to craving. Even something like this dxm+meditating thing leads to craving, by a lot. In the days of doing this you can bet I am super exited and can't wait to take the drug and do this, it is not an unpleasant activity. There is no doubt this is violating the 5th percept.

The thing is, this is jhana and it is not 1% different than sober in terms of it;s qulities.

If this sort of activity was around in budha times you can be sure he would have banned it. He would not have denied the fact that it works but the dangers involved in this like damaging the body, geting easily caught in craving, misusing it, etc. could bring more bad than good but he would have made a special rule for this, not put it in the "don't do drugs" category
dxm, you justifying your use and saying "of course I will quit (but not now)" sounds like the classical addict, I hope you realize that
Nothing new under the sun. Anyway dxm used to be my drug of choice and I quited it very easy when I wanted (I really never wanted that for 1-2 years) because it gives no physical addiction. I will quit this but not now, prob in a month or so. This is not like alchol witch is nr 2 after heroin or hard drugs and it has very little damage on the body. I will quit this like I quited weed (witch was harder) because a meditator should have no cravings like this and this is something meditation tries and is very able to eradicate.
Last edited by dxm_dxm on Thu May 23, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aloka
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by Aloka »

dxm_dxm wrote:.... He would not have denied the fact that it works ......but he would have made a special rule for this, not put it in the "don't do drugs" category
Oh please,this is absolute nonsense, saying that the Buddha would have made a special rule about 21st century cough medicine that kids get high on !





.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by dxm_dxm »

t 21st century cough medicine that kids get high on
Also the nr 1 psichadellic, lsd been the second if you can belive that. Also the only drug that has the proprieties to do what I said about it

Another thing: in the top 5 drug combinations where only cocaine+heroin injected and stuff like that are present, dxm+weed scoares an honorable place 4 lol was shoked to find that too
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by reflection »

dxm_dxm wrote:The fifth percept is there because drugs lead to craving. Even something like this dxm+meditating thing leads to craving, by a lot. In the days of doing this you can bet I am super exited and can't wait to take the drug and do this, it is not an unpleasant activity. There is no doubt this is violating the 5th percept.
Sex leads to craving, good food leads to craving, many other things lead to craving. Overeating is one of the major causes of sickness even, and let's not forget about smoking, which I think we can assume was around at the time of the Buddha. So why are those things not in the basic precepts? .. because it's not just about whether it leads to addiction/craving. It's that drugs are actually detrimental to spiritual practice. And one beer or joint once in a while won't probably hurt too too much in my opinion, but thinking a drug aids in meditation can hurt lots more.

But I recognize you probably won't change your mind. And that's ok with me. If you want to use it, go ahead. But please for the sake of others, don't be an advertisement for drugs in combination with meditation.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by dxm_dxm »

Speaking of not pretenting to be totally detached like an arhant already in order to walk the path. In thailand I think 55% of budhist monks used to smoke. After an anti-smoking campain they dropped to 35%.
and let's not forget about smoking, which I think we can assume was around at the time of the Buddha. So why are those things not in the basic precepts?
Oh wait a minute. The nr 4 most addictive drug is not violating the 5th percept ? Did Budha make a list of drugs for that ? What did he put there except alchool ? Hiuh.. seems like dxm is not violating the 5th percept after all
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by SDC »

Classic trolling.

Easily the dumbest thread ever.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by marc108 »

dxm_dxm wrote:what this drug basically does is cut of your mind from your body, that is the whole magic about it. The body is a big impediment in meditation
this is pretty much exactly the opposite of the Buddhist approach to meditation.

Having both abused DXM recreationally and being long time meditator, I believe it would be impossible to attain any meaningful state of right-Samadhi while under the influence of DXM. Being dissociated from the body is exactly the opposite of what Jhana is. I believe it likely that you are mistaking pleasant, drug induced states for Jhana... drug induced states of concentration can be powerful and profound, but be clear... they are not right-Samadhi. The only way for you to know for SURE is to maintain Jhana without drugs and compare the two states.

I also believe that out of all the drugs I used as a teenager, DXM was the most damaging. so be forewarned.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by Zenainder »

Not to mention, attachment to any object is refrained from fundamentally in Buddhism. Dxm is the same. It is likely the euphoric fascination has dxm delusioned and enchanted in his thinking that an exterior substance has progressed his sense of spirituality --- directly violated the very basics of Buddhism. Alas, sometimes it takes folly to wake us up I suppose.

Hoping for your protection dxm, a dangerous drug is still dangerous to the body.
May you discover the true peace / bliss within along with right samadhi!
:anjali:
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by dxm_dxm »

Having both abused DXM recreationally and being long time meditator, I believe it would be impossible to attain any meaningful state of right-Samadhi while under the influence of DXM. Being dissociated from the body is exactly the opposite of what Jhana is. I believe it likely that you are mistaking pleasant, drug induced states for Jhana... drug induced states of concentration can be powerful and profound, but be clear... they are not right-Samadhi. The only way for you to know for SURE is to maintain Jhana without drugs and compare the two states.
You are losing the practical reality thinking about theory. Been disociated from the body makes the body pain, the senses etc. that can distract you dissapear. It is the same as an isolation chamber. Can you say that because meditation in an isolation chamber is more powerfull it is not right meditation ? The term "drug" scares people more than isolation chamber.

The most important point is I AM NOT MISTAKEN JHANA FOR A NORMAL EFFECT OF THE DRUG. That is why I posted this. When I tried to do this experiment 2 years ago and posted on this forum what happened I concluded that I improved the effect of the drug but achieved nothing in meditating and that most of the time it was imposible to meditate on it. (the topic was deleted) On this drug it is known that 90% of the thing is what you do after it, the same as in this experiment. You have to figure out how to do it, figure out the dosage you can;t just take it and boom.

The steps I am experiencing while entering jhana on this drug are identical to what I experience when sober and to what I read should happen. As a matter of fact I entered second jhana and did now know it for 2 times and then after reading how to do it so that I could get there I found out it was the second and payed more atention and it was exaclty what was supposed to happen (in one of the 2 sources, as I said the information is contradicting on the net). I am reffering to dropping vitaka and vicara, droping the voluntary atention and effort to the pleasantnes of the pleasant sensation, not changing your focus to emotional pleasure. There is no emotional pleasure to be found to change to it. Belive me it is not some effect of the drug improved by this, actually the effects of the drug are non existant at all the day when you do this, only a little dissociation while not meditating and probably serotonine levels increased but nothing more than that. When meditating on it the meditation is as clear and how-it-is-suposed-to-be as it gets, there is no side effect of the drug bothering you. THIS IS SOMETHING REMARKABLE AND THAT IS WHY I POSTED THIS.


The reason why I posted this in the first place is actually because the information should be somewhere. I see in all documentaries how big stuff is discovered from unexpected places and how big stuff is not discovered because of information not been shared etc. There is probably more bad than good in posting this but that;s why I did it. If it is 0,01% chance of something been discovered because of this I had to post it.

Anyway, I am gona e-mail this to the guy that made the "DMT - the spirit molecule" because he seems to do research like this. THIS DESERVES A COUPLE OF BRAIN SCANS AT LEAST. There is 0,01% chance of hearing the classic documentary beggining line "so I heard about this and took 16 student volunteers, stoned them up and bingo" lol
I also believe that out of all the drugs I used as a teenager, DXM was the most damaging. so be forewarned.
In what aspect ? I am afraid of lowering your brain capacities in some way and doing it slowly so that you do not notice. I would apreciate an honest and argumented opinion.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by perkele »

Lazy_eye wrote:I'm not encouraging it. We are having a discussion and I'm simply noting some possible implications of dxm_dxm's line of thinking.

If you will see my earlier post in the thread, you'll see I made a point similar to yours.
Earlier, yes. But then you revoked it, as it were, by accepting dxm's snide dismissal of such trifles.

And now you continue encouraging it all the more:
Lazy_Eye wrote:
perkele wrote:And what is the culmination of insight? That all things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. All states are anicca, dukkha, anatta. To cut off all craving and clinging for them and be free.
Yet some people think that jhana is Nibbana, only cultivating ever more craving and clinging for some special pleasent, blissful state, even to the point of wanting to reach it by any means, even drugs.
Actually, though, the aim of Buddhism is the end of dukkha (see the fourth noble truth).

If mind can be manipulated at will using various kinds of medication, why bother cultivating insight at all? You can reduce your suffering and engineer happiness through pharmaceutical means, and the brain will cease working at death, bringing instant parinibbana.
If that is what you endorse then I can't help you.
Lazy_Eye wrote:I think we can have an intelligent discussion and skip the rhetorical posturing. How about you demonstrate instead why jhana attained by means of cough syrup is not really jhana?
I never suggested such a thing and don't think it's even relevant. So I'm not interested in an "intelligent discussion" about it. Thank you.

The point that I made is that jhana is not even the goal.
It's an ephemeral state.
Becoming a drug addict for the sake of attaining it is just completely deluded.

I guess it's futile to dissuade dxm_dxm from such endeavours anyway by now.
He was not really looking for advice, but only intent on proudly advertising his great "discovery".

It's really astounding.

So much hypocrisy, and so much endorsement for it. It's really saddening.

Now for anymore excuses, and anymore distractions from the moral situation, by being dry and "rational" and "discussing intelligently", I am not available.

All the best.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Post by Lazy_eye »

Well, in case I have not made myself clear, let me say again: I am not endorsing dxm_dxm's method. I am against the abuse of medications for recreational purposes, let alone spiritual ones.

However, when somebody posts a topic for discussion, I usually try to avoid dismissing their point of view out of hand, and instead try to engage them and get an idea of where they are coming from. Blanket condemnations, shouting matches and riding the moral high horse really do little else except gratify the person doing the shouting, condemning and moral posturing. Perhaps I'm wrong, but my sense was that the OP was trying to begin a dialogue on the topic.
perkele wrote:I'm not interested in an "intelligent discussion"
Evidently not.
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