A drug that helps meditating ?

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A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu May 23, 2013 1:16 am

I thought a lot about whether to post this or not because this might lead to more bad things than good things but I am the first to do this discovery and there is nothing about it on the internet. I ask the moderators to think about whether this post should be deleted or not and do it if they think it's better. I am not at all encouraging people to do this.

As far as I know the proprieties of drugs there is no other drug that will help you at meditation even a little. Not even the related drugs ketamine and pcp, they are different enough in their proprieties to make your mind wander more, not at all do what this thing does.

The drug is dxm, number 1 psichadellic, lsd been nr 2 acording to many. It is a dissociative and what this drug basically does is cut of your mind from your body, that is the whole magic about it. The body is a big impediment in meditation because it can hurt, it can distract you and you can not leave your body in the same position for 5 hours as a beginer to meditate. Besides that, it simply makes your meditation a LOT more powerfull and does not distract you with any of his other drug effects. I am simply shoked such a thing can exist, it is a real shortcut and I was very sceptical such shortcuts can exist. Meditation in an isolation chamber, isolated from your senses is way more powerfull so the "mind cut from the body" part is good in this way also.

I did a month of samatha meditation on this drug like once every 3 days. Before I did this I was not able to enter the first jhana, I could only get at acces concentration and just a couple of times got a little taste of first jhana. While on the drug I am always able to enter the first jhana in just 2 breaths (yes, 2 times in-breath, out-breath) and I do that just to be sure, could prob even enter jhana directly it;s like my mind want;s to get there and I am keeping it from doing so with my regular business. After 1 month of doing 5 hours of meditation every 3 days on this drug and 30 min meditation in normal days I was able to enter second jhana while on this drug and stay there, a couple of times. The progres I made on this drug is visible in normal meditation. I am able to enter first jhana every time I meditate now, not able to enter the second yet withought the drug. The progres is due to the fact that I am able to meditate 5 hours in a row, something unthinkable for a novice. I am very happy that I just skiped the hard part meaning going to first jhana. It is a lot more easy and am way more enthisuastic when starting my meditation now.

About the side effects of this drug: am not advocating it but they are low. None of them are confirmed but it is belived it can damage your liver and your short term memory. Depending on the user other side effects can be very bad. It is not physical addictive but it is very psichologically adictive. It is easy to get off of it and on the same time it is not. (contradicting but true). The fact that it's almost free and avaliable at any drug store makes it even harder to get off of it. Like any drug it encourages craving in you. Even craving for progress in meditation that it brings with it is a craving too, if you use it for this.


Two things I have to ask:

1. Am I understanding corectly the second jhana ? While been in the first jhana I reach a point where I do not have to maintain my focus wilingly on the plesant sensation, it's like it's going on by itself and the type of pleasure is a little bit different but I can not say that it is emotional pleasure insead of sensual pleasure like I read that it should be. I think it is second jhana because the voluntary attention on the pleasant sensation is dropped, the way I describe it is "like sitting on a car chair and the chair drops on the back" lol

2. How can I get to the third jhana. I read you have to change your focus from the emotional pleasure to contentment but I did not change the focus from physical plesant sensation to emotional sensation in the first place, I just got to a point where I dropped my focus and it continued on it;s own like I read in the second guide I found on the internet. I suppose there is another thing that I should drop now to get to the third jhana.

I do not have a teacher in the place where I am living now, budhism is almost non existent in my country and for some reason there is almost no practical information about working with jhanas on the internet. If anybody experienced in this could pm me and also help me in the future I would be very glad.


Again, I ask the moderators to think if it would be more usetfull to delete this.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby reflection » Thu May 23, 2013 1:37 am

Hi,

With all respect, by its very nature jhana can not be induced by a drug. You are mistaken and I very highly recommend you drop the stuff and start with a clean slate. For your own well-being, please.

With metta,
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2013 1:42 am

Greetings,

reflection wrote:With all respect, by its very nature jhana can not be induced by a drug.

Could you please elaborate on this, because I don't see how that follows?

Jhana, as defined in sutta, involves certain "functions" (or fabrications) being progressively dropped.... e.g. vitakka, vicara and so on.

If something could shut off those things to be dropped, without compromising the factors of concentration, then is it not as least possible?

(Not saying that it's a good idea, and there's no way on earth I'm going to take this drug for this purpose, but if the OP's position or approach is going to be questioned, it would seem best for it to be done on a sound basis otherwise the refutations may be interpreted as being dogmatic).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu May 23, 2013 1:45 am

Just happened to be listening to a talk by Joseph Goldstein where he discusses the pain that arises while meditating for, say, 5 hours. He suggests that encountering this pain can be important to developing our awareness of dukkha and impermanence as applied to the body.

If that's the case, taking a "shortcut" would be seemingly counterproductive...
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu May 23, 2013 2:16 am

Jhana is not induced by the drug, the drug just helps meditation by taking your body out of the way. Besides the body problem it somehow improves concentration, by a lot. Getting into first jhana into 2 breaths is something superhuman. I do not know if advanced monks are able to do that cause of been advanced or if it is something posible only on the drug. I can not enter first jhana after 2 breaths withaught the drug for sure lol. I am very, very sure about at least the first jhana. There is out of the question been some similar effect of the drug.

Another thing about it: the dosage has to be right. If the dossage is right you enter jhana instanlty. If it is too high it is imposible to meditate because the mind will be very agitated.


I am not encouraging it but this is something totally unknown. I am the only one that knows this at least on the internet and this is the only drug from hundreds that exists that can do this. I don't expect to see this drug been given to all the monks on a regular basis from now on lol but I decided to post it so I am not the only one having the information now

After I will become advance at meditating I will take this drug a couple of times and also try it while doing vipassana. It is highly unprobable but if it boosts your meditating at the same ratio as it does in a novice that would be something.

Something intrigues me. If I am able to get into first jhana in 2 breaths then I should be sky rocketing to the 4th jhana in 5 hours. Why did it take 1 month of this to get just to the second ?

@lazy eye - that is is vipassana meditation
If this drug proves effective in vipassana I'll be even more carefull not to die too soon.

Scientist should do a couple of brain scans and research on this highly underestimated and ignored drug.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu May 23, 2013 3:08 am

dxm_dxm wrote:
@lazy eye - that is is vipassana meditation
If this drug proves effective in vipassana I'll be even more carefull not to die too soon.


Yeah, that's true. I shouldn't have confused the two.

It's an interesting question you raise. I guess one thought that occurs to me is that if jhana states could really be induced by a drug, this would show that mind states are physical brain states, nama and rupa are identical, and therefore the aims of Buddhism can be accomplished by the right cocktail of pharmaceutical interventions. The only remaining reason for going after jhana the "old-fashioned way" would be to prevent damage to your liver!
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu May 23, 2013 3:36 am

This drug does not induce jhana. Meditation induces jhana, this drug makes meditation easier by cuting you from the body, the same as an isiolation chamber. The main thing of this drug been a dissociative is cuttin the mind from the body. You can;t take this drug and jump to second third etc. jhana, you have to follow the same steps as usual only that this drug makes it easier. It also improves concentration a lot and maby somebody could tell me why because I have no great knowledge in this field. I suppose the substances it helps the brain release (serotonine etc.) help at this. It might have something to do with the brainwaves.

Of course there is a conection between the jhanic states and the brainwaves and substances released in the brain while in this states. There have been studies on this.


Another thing - the goal in budhism is not developing concentration meditation, it is achieving enlightment through insight meditation.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 23, 2013 5:27 am

Greetings,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreation ... methorphan

:alien:

:toilet:

Looks pretty stupid to me... both health-wise, and from the fact that "the DXM FAQ" cites intoxication (i.e. a violation of the 5th precept) even from the point of the so-called "first plateau".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Feathers » Thu May 23, 2013 5:39 am

I was about to post that wikipedia link. It looks to me by reading the bit on plateaus that you would have to take quite high recreational doses (i.e. WAY above medical) to get the effects we're discussing, so the side effects would be severe. It's more than just liver damage:

William E. White, author of the DXM FAQ, has compiled informal research from correspondence with dextromethorphan users suggesting that heavy abuse may result in various deficits corresponding to the brain areas affected by Olney's lesions; these include loss of episodic memory, decline in ability to learn, abnormalities in some aspects of visual processing, and deficits of abstract language comprehension.[18]

A formal survey of dextromethorphan users[19] showed that more than half of users reported experience of the following symptoms individually for the first week after dextromethorphan use: fatigue, apathy, flashbacks, and constipation. Over a quarter reported insomnia, nightmares, anhedonia, impaired memory, attention deficit and decreased libido. Rarer side effects included panic attacks, impaired learning, tremor, jaundice, urticaria (hives) and myalgia. Frequent and long-term usage at very high doses could possibly lead to toxic psychosis and other permanent psychological problems.[1]


And that's before it gets onto the risks associated with taking something that isn't pure:

Misuse of multi-symptom cold medications, rather than using a cough suppressant whose sole active ingredient is dextromethorphan, carries significant risk of fatality or serious illness . . .


Yeah, tempting as it is to try for a shortcut I think I'll be sticking to the slow and hard work method :tongue:
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Aloka » Thu May 23, 2013 5:43 am

Hi dxm_dxm,

I think that you are mistaken in thinking that any hallucinogenic drug can be beneficial to you because you are risking your physical health and your brain/mind in the process . Its also possible to become extremely deluded about the benefits of drug-induced states.

Years ago, when I was a student, I experimented with hallucinogenic drugs and had some blissful experiences, some of them lasting for days - but I also saw others who took hallucinogenics ending up with serious mental health issues and unable to function as they had before. Two people I knew were hospitalised.

The experiences don't last - they fade away - and one still has to carry on living a normal life, interacting with others, and earning a living.

Give up taking drugs now -and never recommend them to others - is my advice.

With kind wishes

Aloka
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby purple planet » Thu May 23, 2013 6:34 am

there are some bad sides - i didnt experience jahana (that im 100% sure its jhana at least) so i cant say that you dont experience jhana so with the assumption that you do:

if you die it will stop your advancement even some illness can stop your advancement and that i would say is not the middle way - everything you do that can harm your body in this way is not the middle way so it wont advance you - your body is important without it you cannot continue to advance in the path in this life and who knows what will be your next life

stuff are impermanent and that drug will someday lose its usefulness and you will be stuck again with dealing with your body and wont advance and also have lots of frustration because of it which will make things even harder

one of the great obstacles in the path i read about and also experienced : are steps that you feel as if you made progress but you actually didnt - i felt different levels of calm and i still dont assume its jhanas -

i think there are good reasons for each precept - which all come to help us advance to nirvana so if its forbidden to use drugs there probably is a good reason why

i think the minimum you should do is talk to a teacher at least throw the internet - where are you from? did you look really good in google ? maybe someone who is far away ? i drove to my teacher (with waits at the bus stops) 4-5 hours went did a retreat and from then i dont go see him i just call him on the phone

i believe also you advance faster if you have pain and you overcome it - i think 1 hour of pain is worth 5 hours without pain - of course be careful that this pain wont cause real damage but to a certain point its good

so if you would take for instance pain killers and sit for a day im not sure you will get far - unless you have other things to overcome like boredom or a itching feeling
Last edited by purple planet on Thu May 23, 2013 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby reflection » Thu May 23, 2013 7:19 am

dxm_dxm wrote:Jhana is not induced by the drug, the drug just helps meditation by taking your body out of the way.

Induce, or help. Both are not possible by a drug. What you think is jhana is not jhana and just an intoxication of the drug.

If you wish to advance on the Buddhist path, you should not use it.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby reflection » Thu May 23, 2013 7:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

reflection wrote:With all respect, by its very nature jhana can not be induced by a drug.

Could you please elaborate on this, because I don't see how that follows?

Jhana, as defined in sutta, involves certain "functions" (or fabrications) being progressively dropped.... e.g. vitakka, vicara and so on.

If something could shut off those things to be dropped, without compromising the factors of concentration, then is it not as least possible?

(Not saying that it's a good idea, and there's no way on earth I'm going to take this drug for this purpose, but if the OP's position or approach is going to be questioned, it would seem best for it to be done on a sound basis otherwise the refutations may be interpreted as being dogmatic).

Metta,
Retro. :)

Jhana is not just dropping the body or dropping vitakka etc. It is the dropping of the hindrances. That's not something a drug does, but is more a personality thing, a certain skill one has. Just like a drug can't make you better at playing an instrument, it is something developed with continuous practice. Sure, taking a drug may make the music sound better, one may temporarily think one is an excellent pianist, but reality is: without oneself noticing you are still crap at playing the piano.

The mind is not bodily. Drugs effect the body, but not the mind really, only on a superficial level. For example would (accidentally) taking drugs influence the enlightenment of the Buddha? No, he'd still be enlightened. He still wouldn't lie, or steal etc, because the enlightened mind, his skill set, is deeper than the intoxicated level. If one thinks one alters the mind by taking drugs, one doesn't really know what is meant by mind we are working with, one just alters things superficially, not at the level of mind that is needed for jhana or insight. Not the level of mind we work with as Buddhists, that level is more like the skill set of a musician. You can't do it with drugs. Instead, drugs make one lose this perspective. In that sense there is no difference between alcohol and hallucinatics.

By the way, to each his own and if one wants to use drugs, I'm fine with me and they can go ahead. As you said, it's not about being dogmatic. However, it is not helpful in the Buddhist path and this is something I'm 100% sure off. There is no substance to help one become a better pianist and there is no substance to help one become a better meditator.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Thu May 23, 2013 8:49 am

When you first came on here dxm I was wondering if your name referred to the drug found in cough syrup that teenagers often "robo-trip" on.

I had a friend I used to smoke weed with all the time back in high school who got really into taking dxm, it eventually made him noticeably significantly slower. He went from someone with average intelligence to someone with below average intelligence and was obviously a bit out there from then on.

Any "meditative" state that is induced with the help of drugs is not going to be a meditative state that the Buddha would have suggested one should cultivate. It seems to me that you're just getting high on dxm, which allows you to stay motionless for long periods of time and bliss out while being aware of it, this is not jhana.

Also, you are taking dxm way too often. Basically you're saying that you have been overdosing on cough syrup every few days for a month in order to meditate, when you think about it that way, doesn't it seem rather silly?

Seriously though, you should lay off the cough medicine.

:soap:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby perkele » Thu May 23, 2013 8:57 am

Lazy_Eye wrote:It's an interesting question you raise. I guess one thought that occurs to me is that if jhana states could really be induced by a drug, this would show that mind states are physical brain states, nama and rupa are identical, and therefore the aims of Buddhism can be accomplished by the right cocktail of pharmaceutical interventions. The only remaining reason for going after jhana the "old-fashioned way" would be to prevent damage to your liver!

How stupid to think in such a way, even encouraging such bullshit.

Fortunately, even dxm_dxm knows better:
dxm_dxm wrote:Another thing - the goal in budhism is not developing concentration meditation, it is achieving enlightment through insight meditation.

And what is the culmination of insight? That all things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. All states are anicca, dukkha, anatta. To cut off all craving and clinging for them and be free.
Yet some people think that jhana is Nibbana, only cultivating ever more craving and clinging for some special pleasent, blissful state, even to the point of wanting to reach it by any means, even drugs.
Even to encourage each other in such thinking... :thinking:, unthinkable.

dxm_dxm wrote:After I will become advance at meditating I will take this drug a couple of times and also try it while doing vipassana. It is highly unprobable but if it boosts your meditating at the same ratio as it does in a novice that would be something.

Do you know what it is about? Thinking about "ratio"... and so on, getting getting getting, getting it fast. You don't even know what you are after. You are missing the point.

dxm_dxm wrote:The body is a big impediment in meditation because it can hurt, it can distract you and you can not leave your body in the same position for 5 hours as a beginer to meditate.

You won't want to do vipassana. You will have to look at reality. You will have to experience unpleasent states.
But yeah, better do it in a convenient way, "boosting" it. :twothumbsup:
:?

Try to skip all dukkha, "transcend" it. It doesn't exist. It's not true.

What did the Buddha say?
Dukkha is to be understood.

It is not holy and sacred and to be pursued. That's not the point. But it is real. It's already there. We have to look at it. We can't avoid it.

You'll find the kind of dukkha that you are setting yourself up for. We all do.

Good luck.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu May 23, 2013 11:04 am

perkele wrote:
Lazy_Eye wrote:It's an interesting question you raise. I guess one thought that occurs to me is that if jhana states could really be induced by a drug, this would show that mind states are physical brain states, nama and rupa are identical, and therefore the aims of Buddhism can be accomplished by the right cocktail of pharmaceutical interventions. The only remaining reason for going after jhana the "old-fashioned way" would be to prevent damage to your liver!

How stupid to think in such a way, even encouraging such bullshit.


I'm not encouraging it. We are having a discussion and I'm simply noting some possible implications of dxm_dxm's line of thinking.

If you will see my earlier post in the thread, you'll see I made a point similar to yours.

Fortunately, even dxm_dxm knows better:
dxm_dxm wrote:Another thing - the goal in budhism is not developing concentration meditation, it is achieving enlightment through insight meditation.

And what is the culmination of insight? That all things are anicca, dukkha, anatta. All states are anicca, dukkha, anatta. To cut off all craving and clinging for them and be free.
Yet some people think that jhana is Nibbana, only cultivating ever more craving and clinging for some special pleasent, blissful state, even to the point of wanting to reach it by any means, even drugs.
[/quote]

Actually, though, the aim of Buddhism is the end of dukkha (see the fourth noble truth).

If mind can be manipulated at will using various kinds of medication, why bother cultivating insight at all? You can reduce your suffering and engineer happiness through pharmaceutical means, and the brain will cease working at death, bringing instant parinibbana.

Even to encourage each other in such thinking... :thinking:, unthinkable.


I think we can have an intelligent discussion and skip the rhetorical posturing. How about you demonstrate instead why jhana attained by means of cough syrup is not really jhana?
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby Zenainder » Thu May 23, 2013 11:17 am

dxm_dxm wrote:Jhana is not induced by the drug, the drug just helps meditation by taking your body out of the way. Besides the body problem it somehow improves concentration, by a lot. Getting into first jhana into 2 breaths is something superhuman. I do not know if advanced monks are able to do that cause of been advanced or if it is something posible only on the drug. I can not enter first jhana after 2 breaths withaught the drug for sure lol. I am very, very sure about at least the first jhana. There is out of the question been some similar effect of the drug.

Another thing about it: the dosage has to be right. If the dossage is right you enter jhana instanlty. If it is too high it is imposible to meditate because the mind will be very agitated.


I am not encouraging it but this is something totally unknown. I am the only one that knows this at least on the internet and this is the only drug from hundreds that exists that can do this. I don't expect to see this drug been given to all the monks on a regular basis from now on lol but I decided to post it so I am not the only one having the information now

After I will become advance at meditating I will take this drug a couple of times and also try it while doing vipassana. It is highly unprobable but if it boosts your meditating at the same ratio as it does in a novice that would be something.

Something intrigues me. If I am able to get into first jhana in 2 breaths then I should be sky rocketing to the 4th jhana in 5 hours. Why did it take 1 month of this to get just to the second ?

@lazy eye - that is is vipassana meditation
If this drug proves effective in vipassana I'll be even more carefull not to die too soon.

Scientist should do a couple of brain scans and research on this highly underestimated and ignored drug.


dxm,

As I've come to understand the jhana 1 teachings, you may be able to "attain" it, but there is a matter of mastering it. Which does mean instantly entering and leaving it, also remaining within it for a set period of time. At least that is what I've learned.

I personally do not encourage drug induced states as it creates an unskillful facade and ultimiately delusion of "progress". Need I point out that all suffering and bliss is internal and a drug induced state is an exterior device. From the start of the question, can bliss by means of meditation be attained through drugs: no... its a contradiction of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism.

Be blissed,

:anjali:
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu May 23, 2013 1:06 pm

fatigue, apathy, flashbacks, and constipation. Over a quarter reported insomnia, nightmares, anhedonia, impaired memory, attention deficit and decreased libido. Rarer side effects included panic attacks, impaired learning, tremor, jaundice, urticaria (hives) and myalgia. Frequent and long-term usage at very high doses could possibly lead to toxic psychosis and other permanent psychological problems.[1]

Again am not encouraging it but... this is more bull**t than the classic anti-drug commercials against marijuana. I have experienced a part of the above at very, very low intensity and only while on the drug. I was never bothered by side effects. Beside that, none of them is proven by studies. An objective analise can be found here http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq ... ects.shtml

When you first came on here dxm I was wondering if your name referred to the drug found in cough syrup that teenagers often "robo-trip" on.

Picked it so that I am imposible to be found by any romanians while googling. They would burn me on the stake :D lol seriously did not want anybody who knows me to find out about me been a budhist so I changed my nickname in this. About teenagers robo trippin on it lol, you can see why the nr1 psichadellic is so underestimated. It is also due to it;s price and avaliability.

Also, you are taking dxm way too often. Basically you're saying that you have been overdosing on cough syrup every few days for a month in order to meditate, when you think about it that way, doesn't it seem rather silly?

Not only am I taking it too often but I am also using pretty high doses :D

I know this is not good and I quited all drugs for some time. I even quit weed and used to smoke non stop every day. I knew I had to do this a long time ago but I was not powerfull enough in my meditation to be detached enough to do it. This is the only drug that I am still using at the moment. Yawares had a nice post that helped in this aspect in her daily dharma thread but I can not find it. It was about a meditator who is using intoxicants is not a true meditator, so bad I can't find it.

I quited dxm for a time but I decided to do this "study" on meditation and dxm because I still belived something could be found there. I tried this before with no succes because of the way of practice and the wrong dosage. Half of the reason why I started is this, the other half is using this first reason as a justification to do it again cause I love it so much.

I know what is good and bad, my problem is the classic: been strong and developed enough to do what is good and not do what is bad


About the fact that it is not jhana because on the drug... :

I can asure you it is jhana because it is identical to what I experience when sober only that I am not able to get so far and do it so easy. A thing that takes out all of the debate is that it improved my sober meditation a lot. Told you where I was before the 1 month of doing this and where I am now. On this drug you do the same steps and the proces is extremelly clear, like sober but faster and more powerfull. There are no side effects of this drug like halucinations and stuff like that to make the experience even 1% more impure, if you use the right dosage. Saying it is not jhana cause it can;t be jhana on a drug is like saying it can;t be jhana in a sensual isolation chamber because it's not jhana in a sensual isolation chamber. It's not jhana in the monastery eather, cause the monastery is a place made to be suited for meditating. I also pointed out that this is the only drug out of hundreds existing witch can have this effect. I haven't tried them all but looking at their proprieties it is highly unprobable that there is another that could improve meditation even a little.

Of course this drug must have limitations but at least until the second jhana in concentration meditation there were none and I asume there will be non until the 4th also.

Do you know what it is about? Thinking about "ratio"... and so on, getting getting getting, getting it fast. You don't even know what you are after. You are missing the point.

I can see your point but I am after improving my concentration. Of course I am gona quit the drug and concentrate on vipassana meditation more but if I would be able to get at 4th jhana faster, by any means I would be very happy. I know you should be as detached as posible and that is the only way to walk the path but most people talk about this like they are and all of us should be totally detached like an arhant already in order to walk the path. I am not totally detached and I know that. One day hopefully I will be but for the moment I am just trying to be.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby reflection » Thu May 23, 2013 1:34 pm

Well, you are wrong. It ain't jhana. I have explained why, but of course you will not be convinced by me as you have already convinced yourself of something else. Doesn't mean I am wrong, though. So, if anybody in the future reads this thread and might be interested, I hope they will trust me: don't be tempted, dxm_dxm is mistaken and clouded. Meditation is to be done without drugs or it won't be meditation. It is not cultivation of mind, but mere drugging.

The fifth precept is there with a reason. I don't mean to enforce it on anybody of course, but those who consider drugs to be an aid in meditation should seriously reconsider why it's there.

dxm, you justifying your use and saying "of course I will quit (but not now)" sounds like the classical addict, I hope you realize that.

Keep well,
Reflection
Last edited by reflection on Thu May 23, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A drug that helps meditating ?

Postby dxm_dxm » Thu May 23, 2013 1:45 pm

The fifth percept is there because drugs lead to craving. Even something like this dxm+meditating thing leads to craving, by a lot. In the days of doing this you can bet I am super exited and can't wait to take the drug and do this, it is not an unpleasant activity. There is no doubt this is violating the 5th percept.

The thing is, this is jhana and it is not 1% different than sober in terms of it;s qulities.

If this sort of activity was around in budha times you can be sure he would have banned it. He would not have denied the fact that it works but the dangers involved in this like damaging the body, geting easily caught in craving, misusing it, etc. could bring more bad than good but he would have made a special rule for this, not put it in the "don't do drugs" category

dxm, you justifying your use and saying "of course I will quit (but not now)" sounds like the classical addict, I hope you realize that

Nothing new under the sun. Anyway dxm used to be my drug of choice and I quited it very easy when I wanted (I really never wanted that for 1-2 years) because it gives no physical addiction. I will quit this but not now, prob in a month or so. This is not like alchol witch is nr 2 after heroin or hard drugs and it has very little damage on the body. I will quit this like I quited weed (witch was harder) because a meditator should have no cravings like this and this is something meditation tries and is very able to eradicate.
Last edited by dxm_dxm on Thu May 23, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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