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first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation, etc - Dhamma Wheel

first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation, etc

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frank k
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first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation, etc

Postby frank k » Mon May 20, 2013 8:37 pm

I was looking at two english translations for SN 56.11 dhammacakkappavatana sutta.
I then was looking at the pali, and am confused by the lack of "sorrow, lamentation, distress, suffering, despair" from the pali.
I checked the BJT (sri lankan) from ATI, The thai and burmese tipitaka via DPR, they all show about the same thing, with the "sorrow , lamentation..." missing between dukkho maranampi and dukkham appiyehi. I'm really confused. What's going on here?

BJT:
Idaṃ kho pana bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ: jātipi dukkhā jarāpi dukkhā vyādhipi dukkho maraṇampi dukkhaṃ appiyehi sampayogo dukkho piyehi vippayogo dukkho yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ saṅkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā".

Thanissaro:
"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

Peter Harvey:
"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the true reality which is pain: birth is painful, aging is painful, illness is painful, death is painful; sorrow, lamentation, physical pain, unhappiness and distress are painful; union with what is disliked is painful; separation from what is liked is painful; not to get what one wants is painful; in brief, the five bundles of grasping-fuel are painful.

I also noticed missing from the Thai Pali is the vyādipi dukkho.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

frank k
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

2nd noble truth

Postby frank k » Mon May 20, 2013 8:47 pm

thai pali:
Idaṃ kho pana bhikkhave

dukkhasamudayo VAR ariyasaccaṃ. Yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā

tatratatrābhinandinī. Seyyathīdaṃ. Kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā

vibhavataṇhā.

thanissaro has:
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

harvey:
"Now this, bhikkhus, for the spiritually ennobled ones, is the pain-originating true reality. It is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and attachment, seeking delight now here now there; that is, craving for sense-pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination (of what is not liked).

DPR dictionary entry (I think it's CPED) for ponobhavika as: leading to rebirth
and bhavatanha as craving for rebirth.

Is rebirth a valid interpretation for bhava in this context?
I like how Harvey takes a clear stand on vibhava tanha and gives a very specific meaning. Where as Thanissaro's "craving for non-becoming" is more literal and consistent in pali translation, but vague in meaning.

So the big question is does bhava/becoming cover present moment in life "becoming" moment by moment and inclusive of rebirth? Or was rebirth something the Buddha implied as a secondary consideration?
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings

Zakattack
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Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Zakattack » Mon May 20, 2013 9:30 pm


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Dmytro
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Re: 2nd noble truth

Postby Dmytro » Tue May 21, 2013 3:47 am



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Sekha
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Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Sekha » Tue May 21, 2013 5:08 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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Sylvester
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Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby Sylvester » Thu May 23, 2013 12:59 am


frank k
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: first noble truth, SN 56.11 missing sorrow, lamentation,

Postby frank k » Thu May 30, 2013 2:34 pm

Thanks to all for the comments.

Zak, that's an interesting thought on "why" the exclusion, and what you proposed makes sense except for dukkha is among the list of the excluded items "sokehi, paridevehi, dukkhehi, ..." although you could say that the excluded dukkha is the conventional dukkha vs. the dukkha as ariya sacca.

Dmytro, thanks for that citation. "bhava" does seem quite comprehensive in that context, from tanha, upaadana up to rebirth in realms of sensuality, fine material, formless realms.
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings


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