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translation of cessation of suffering - Dhamma Wheel

translation of cessation of suffering

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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bartovan
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translation of cessation of suffering

Postby bartovan » Sun May 12, 2013 4:13 am


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Dmytro
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby Dmytro » Mon May 13, 2013 12:25 pm



bartovan
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby bartovan » Mon May 13, 2013 1:55 pm

Thanks for the links. I tried to understand the page about Pali compounds but it remains unclear really.

1) about the compound:
If I understand correctly the last word in the compound is predominant. So complete-indifference-cessation is: a kind of cessation. But which kind? Does the "complete" refer to "indifference", to "cessation", or to both? Leaving this question aside, remains the more important question: what is an "indifference-cessation"? I would imagine a cessation of indifference, but that's not the usual translation, which is more like: "a cessation that is like 'becoming indifferent towards', like "being free from" ". How can we know, purely from the text, which is correct?
If indifference-cessation really means "indifference towards and cessation of" why are they in a compound and not just one after another?

2) about the rest of the phrase:
Then we have four nouns: abandoning, rejecting, release, aversion.

Is there anything in the grammar that tells me how to link them together, to what they refer? The phrase is usually translated as all five (the compound and four nouns) referring to "craving", but is there something in the grammar that tells us so, or is this interpretation? Is there something, technically speaking, that impedes me from translating the whole phrase as, for instance: "Just this: the complete cessation of indifference, the abandoning of rejecting, the release of aversion."?

I'm not really trying to find alternate meanings here, just trying to understand up to what point the Pali text guides, "hard-codes", the meaning... I'm not searching to criticize translators either, they do a tremendous job. Just curious really in how far this noble truth as we know it is modern interpretation and how much is hard-coded in the original phrase...

Thanks in advance for any help...

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Dmytro
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby Dmytro » Mon May 13, 2013 6:20 pm



bartovan
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby bartovan » Tue May 14, 2013 8:29 am

Great. Couldn't you (or anyone else) tell me, concerning this specific phrase, how the declension and conjugation of the words work here, please?
Also concerning the compound, how do I know whether it is "cessation of an indifference-kind" or "cessation of indifference towards" etc. What in these words guides us towards one or another meaning? If it's just "cessation and indifference", why are they in a compound?

I know I'm supposed to learn Pali myself but I really can't do this at this time in my life, so if anyone would please lend me their knowledge and apply it in this one single case, I would be very grateful... They seem basic questions to me, to which someone with some decent knowledge of Pali could easily and in short answer, no? I don't mean to take all your time either...

many thanks in advance for your friendly guidance and time...

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Dmytro
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby Dmytro » Tue May 14, 2013 1:30 pm



bartovan
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Re: translation of cessation of suffering

Postby bartovan » Tue May 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Thank you very much for your long and detailed explanation.

So if I understand correctly: if it were to mean "the abandoning of rejecting" for instance, then "rejecting" (patinissaggo) should be genitive, which it is not. It's nominative. Right? So that's why we know it all applies to tassa tanhaya, which is the only genitive part of the sentence.

Thanks also for sending me the other link to the discussion about Mahaparinibbana sutta. It struck me that what monks should develop is not not-self, dispassion, cessation, etc., but rather: the perception of those (and others).

In any case many thanks for your time and effort.


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