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“Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytism - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

“Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Coyote
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Coyote » Sat May 11, 2013 2:06 pm

Both "No self" and "No self in all dhammas" are saying the same thing - that there is no phenomena that is suitable to be clung to as "I am this, this is mine, this is myself".
What binocular has mentioned is the idea that "no self" is misapplied as an definitive ontological statement and instead is a practical tool to see impermanence and eliminate clinging. Please correct me if I am wrong.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

binocular
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby binocular » Sat May 11, 2013 3:22 pm


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Paribbajaka
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Paribbajaka » Sat May 11, 2013 6:03 pm

May all beings be happy!

Coyote
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Coyote » Sat May 11, 2013 6:19 pm

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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mikenz66
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:12 pm


binocular
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby binocular » Sun May 12, 2013 6:39 am


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mikenz66
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 12, 2013 8:08 am

Well, obviously, I'm aware that certain people disagree with the standard Theravada position on certain issues. In a number of cases I think that they make some good points. However, the "not-self strategy" is just Ven Thanissaro's particular interpretation. Whether one perceives it as a "full blown controversy" probably depends on what circles one moves in. In particular, whether they have even heard of him or care enough about the issue to argue. I'm willing to concede that there may be mediation halls out there where people are figuratively coming to blows over the issue, but I've only ever seen people arguing over it on forums such as this one. The people I know personally don't seem to be anywhere near as argumentative as on-line forums...

:anjali:
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binocular
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby binocular » Sun May 12, 2013 10:37 am


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Paribbajaka
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Paribbajaka » Mon May 13, 2013 12:53 pm

May all beings be happy!

binocular
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 6:51 pm


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Paribbajaka
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Paribbajaka » Mon May 13, 2013 8:07 pm

I guess I don't :anjali:
May all beings be happy!

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kirk5a
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 8:58 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

binocular
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby binocular » Tue May 14, 2013 4:28 am


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ancientbuddhism
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:08 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


tharpa
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby tharpa » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:31 am

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu. :bow: It pleases me very much to see the original post stated so clearly. Usually Theravadins are so polite that they don't dare say something like this.

Then in the comments, we get back to the usual mish-mash that we know and tolerate so well. :)

I would go further and say that I believe that one of the primary motives for composition of the Mahayana Sutras was that the authors saw Old School monks getting all the goodies, (the requisities, good food, adulation, honor, etc), and that the authors wanted that but did not want to pay the price, i.e. following the Vinaya. The Heart Sutra, in particular, can be seen as a point-by-point refutation of the Buddha's primary teachings. Once there was a Sutra that contradicted the Buddha's teachings, the inconvenience of reason, common sense and logic in the student's minds had been eliminated, and the teachers could then teach anything they wanted and call it Buddhism, all with the ultimate goal of obtaining requisites without paying the price of sila.

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tiltbillings
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:26 am


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Dan74
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Dan74 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:51 am

_/|\_

Raksha
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby Raksha » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:46 am

Water in a red glass, water in a blue glass...for my part I cannot separate out Theravada from Mahayana, they appear indistinguishable. The only time that I think of them separately is when I am speaking with those who make an issue of perceived differences.
:anjali:

tharpa
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby tharpa » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:29 pm


tharpa
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Re: “Skillful Means” and the rhetoric of Mahāyāna proselytis

Postby tharpa » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:39 pm



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