The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Mon May 13, 2013 3:50 am

mikenz66 wrote:H Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:... When there's more and more understanding in different aspects, it can condition the moment of direct experience of realities, by way of upanissaya paccaya. This would not be possible without a clear understanding of what is the object of satipatthana and what is not, and a strong emphasis on the realities NOW. ...

So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else. And certainly seems be a "method" that your are convinced will "work". Of course, that "strong emphasis" arises from conditions, just as in any other "method".

I have no argument with your "method". It seems perfectly reasonable to me, since it's actually the same as what the rest of us think we are doing.

The disagreement, to me, is mostly over the insistence of KS students that they are "just letting conditions work", in contrast to "meditators". I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.

:anjali:

Mike


So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else


This is the reason I wrote this:

This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across


And that is also the reason why have to stress again and again on the differences, at the risk of sounding antagonist.

I don't think we should a avoid talking about differences, because it's there that lies any potential for growth. All AS' students are exposed to having their questions/arguments/sharings subjected to cristism under the light of right understanding, either by her or by others. I think that's is also the way it was in many sutta among the Buddha's disciples.

Now back to that line. To some, it seems to be a method, but that is not so. As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise). Actually, when there's emphasis on now, it doesn't mean that one should try to attend to what appears now, because then, it is a citta accompanied by wrong understanding and wanting that tries. Realities arise and pass away so rapidly, it can not be approached by a citta which wants to approach it. Actually, when we say " we try to be aware of what appears", we actually only think of what have arisen and fallen away, there's no actual approaching to that reality with right awareness. Only by the power of right understanding, when it is conditioned to arise, which can have vitaka leading the citta directly to the object, which is an extremely feeling dhamma which now can appear clearly. But hearing again and again that what is talked about is only the dhammas which appear now, and knowing clearly the difference between what is only thinking about a fallen away dhamma, and what is a dhamma, all that can condition the moment of direct understanding. But most important of all, it's the understanding that is is not a technique that one can do, but something that happens by conditions. This is an extremly subtle point.

Sayadaw U Tejanyia that you mentioned sometimes also says that there's no method for vipassana. When people come to him for instructions he usually says: now you are sitting, do you need to make an effort to know that you are sitting? Do you need to make an effort to know there's seeing, touching, hearing, thinking?
Once someone asked him "what is the secret meaning of the schedule "1 hour sitting, 1 hour walking"?", he laughed and said: "just because it is a meditation center and we have to have a schedule so people are not at loss as how to spend their time, otherwise they would just sit and chat."

Being one of his old students and having had many conversations with him, I personally think that he would agree with most, if not all, the points raised by AS. He also says: let's wisdom do its own work. However, the very idea that there should be a method, a technique, there's a person who has to strive, be it in a meditation center or in daily life, is very deeply anchored. So I think what I have found extremly helpful in AS's way of explaining the Dhamma, is that she places the utmost importance on explaining that the Path is an impersonal process, and on what are the right causes for the right effects. She also pointed out what is not sati that is usually taken to be sati, and that is a very important step too.

There are many people, who read or listen to AS's discussions, and say that they agree with everything, but usually, when it comes to this point, they either can't agree or see it at a breakthrough. That is the reason why we pick out that point again and again, because it is the corner stone. Fruitful or not, I don't know, because it depends rather on the accumulations of each person.

Brgds,
D.F

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kirk5a
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 4:08 am

When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 13, 2013 4:16 am

dhamma follower wrote:
So, this is just as much a "method" as anything else


This is the reason I wrote this:
dhamma follower wrote:This description might lead one to think that there is in fact an exercise that one must try to do. But in reality, it is totally an empty process, causes and effects, causes and effects. If there is trying to make it, it can not happen, because then it is done by the idea of someone who can, and by the desire to get something. The entire process is ignated actually by a clear understanding that it is an empty proccess, which is conditioned by right understanding now. This is a subtle point that we have a great difficulty getting across

And I have given you quotes from at least two other teachers (and you've added Sayadaw T yourself) who say essentially the same thing. So it's not something unique to Ajahn Sujin. How could it be, when it's the teaching of the Buddha? Of course, anyone can say that they are not operating with the "idea of someone who can". Whether they really are another matter.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 5:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.
But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.


So?

No, really: let's explore this.

What exactly is wrong with one teacher and her school looking down on others and directly or indirectly claiming she is the one who has the right understandign of the Buddha's teachings?

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Paul Davy
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Paul Davy » Mon May 13, 2013 6:01 am

Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... :?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 6:10 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I think you (the students) would be much more convincing if you simply explained your approach, and discussed commonalities with other Dhamma students, rather than putting so much effort into arguing about differences. In my experience, that is never fruitful.
But it is not just arguing about differences, but adamantly stating that those who differ from Sujin's point of view are categorically wrong, on a wrong path, deluded by self, motivated by lobha.


So?

No, really: let's explore this.

What exactly is wrong with one teacher and her school looking down on others and directly or indirectly claiming she is the one who has the right understandign of the Buddha's teachings?
You tell me what is not wrong with it.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:04 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?
That.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:puggalaphobia...

Good term!

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You tell me what is not wrong with it.

What did you expect?
That.


You think I'm being too peaceful about all this?

You think it's time for some Vajra wrath?

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:10 am

binocular wrote:
You think I'm being too peaceful about all this?
I do not understand the question.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:18 am

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 am

binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responded to.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:40 am

dhamma follower wrote:[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?


So what? One learns conceptually what is path and what is not, and then one follows it.

dhamma follower wrote:What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?


Some people don't have that much obscurations, so their samādhi does not have to be as strong. If it works for you, then great. I have lots of defilements.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responded to.


What business should not be or should be responded to?

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:53 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.


What business should not be or should be responded to?
Start a new thread.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 1:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... :?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Ha! "puggalaphobia." Who knows, maybe the Puggalavadins were reacting to puggalaphobia. Not that they didn't get carried away also. But you're right, the Buddha cleary did not make these artificial attempts to sanitize his teachings of all personal speech.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:31 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Post unfinished, please replace by the next one
Last edited by dhamma follower on Tue May 14, 2013 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 6:47 am

dhamma follower wrote:
kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.
Part of the problem here is that your conception of "formal" practice is a straw-man that poorly reflects the real world.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

dhamma follower
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:49 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

IMHO, because of the core of both developments (samatha and vipassana) is understanding (of different kinds), I don't think we should imitate the behavior of what is described in the texts. Rather i would assess my level of understanding first. I can imagine very well that when understanding has been developed to a certain stage, living in seclusion will seem to be the most natural thing to do. And when the danger of sense pleasure has really been seen by wisdom, nothing will be better than a forest-gone recluse life devoting to the escape from sense pleasure.

“Monks, these five are forest-gone. What five?
“One is forest-gone out of folly and blindness; one out of evil desires and longings;
one foolish and mind-tossed; one at the thought: ”It is praised by Buddhas and
their disciples”; and one is forest-gone just because his wants are little, just for
contentment, just to mark (his own faults) 8
, just for seclusion, just because it is
the very thing 9
.
“Verily, monks, of these five who have gone to the forest, he who has gone just
because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for
seclusion, just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best,
foremost, highest, elect.
“Monks, just as from the cow comes milk, from milk cream, from cream butter,
from butter ghee, from ghee the skim of ghee which is reckoned topmost; even so,
monks, of these five forest-gone, he who has gone just because his wants are little,
for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, and just because it is the
very thing–he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect.”


Gradual sayings, Part III, Ch XIX, 181- Forest gone


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