Ajahn Brahm for sale?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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James the Giant
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by James the Giant »

Maybe if someone is going to post where the auction is at, the name of the bidder could be removed? Since it's on a private website and all.

EDIT: thanks for removing the name. The bidders might not mind, but it just seems better. Cheers :anjali:
Last edited by James the Giant on Thu May 09, 2013 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

James the Giant wrote:Maybe if someone is going to post where the auction is at, the name of the bidder could be removed? Since it's on a private website and all.
done
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by pegembara »

Who speaks the truth?

Two monks were arguing about the temple flag waving in the wind. One said, "The flag moves." The other said, "The wind moves." They argued back and forth but could not agree.
The Sixth Ancestor said, "Gentlemen! It is not the wind that moves; it is not the flag that moves; it is your mind that moves." The two monks were struck with awe.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Kusala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Kusala »

I wonder if this post applies to Ajahn Brahm :thinking: http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2010/03/p ... hamma.html
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Paribbajaka »

To be honest I find it funny that this is such a big issue. I support and attend several Lao Theravada temples in my home area, and I consitently see monks holding their own money, being directly donated money by the lay community, riding in and driving cars, and hanging around listening to music. My primary teacher not only keeps food overnight, but has TWO refrigerators to accomodate what he has. It is my impression based on researcha nd experience that this is not a local phenomenon but typical of modern monks.

Why is no one decrying their vinaya offenses? Why is this so accepted and yet a western monk making a bit of a joke (for a good cause) is being put under such scrutiny?

This is obviously in addition to the widespread market of monks selling amulets, selling blessed bracelets, telling fortunes and giving lucky lottery numbers, etc. etc. etc.
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DNS
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by DNS »

Paribbajaka wrote: and hanging around listening to music.
This is obviously in addition to the widespread market of monks selling amulets, selling blessed bracelets, telling fortunes and giving lucky lottery numbers, etc. etc. etc.
Why is no one decrying their vinaya offenses?
Maybe someone should. I might understand why some monks might need to handle some money and drive cars in a modern city, for example to get to the hospital to visit and chant for a sick community member. Or to have a refrigerator since fresh lunch dana may not be available on all days in a modern Western city.

However, hanging around and listening to music? That is totally inappropriate; violation of Vinaya and unseemly for a monk while lay people go off to work and don't even have that luxury in most cases.
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Lazy_eye »

I believe that addressing questions like these was part of the intent behind Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh's revised pratimoksha.

I realize he's Mahayana and not everyone agrees with the approach he followed. But questions of the sort raised in this thread might demonstrate the need for such an undertaking.
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Anagarika
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Anagarika »

tiltbillings wrote:
James the Giant wrote:Maybe if someone is going to post where the auction is at, the name of the bidder could be removed? Since it's on a private website and all.
done
My apologies for the inclusion of the bidder's name. I should have been a bit more careful.
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Anagarika
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Anagarika »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Paribbajaka wrote: and hanging around listening to music.
This is obviously in addition to the widespread market of monks selling amulets, selling blessed bracelets, telling fortunes and giving lucky lottery numbers, etc. etc. etc.
Why is no one decrying their vinaya offenses?
Maybe someone should. I might understand why some monks might need to handle some money and drive cars in a modern city, for example to get to the hospital to visit and chant for a sick community member. Or to have a refrigerator since fresh lunch dana may not be available on all days in a modern Western city.

However, hanging around and listening to music? That is totally inappropriate; violation of Vinaya and unseemly for a monk while lay people go off to work and don't even have that luxury in most cases.
A good friend of mine who was a Phra farang in Thailand once said "if you want to know the best cell phone to buy, ask a young monk." I keep in mind that many of these men that come to the Wat and ordain are just looking for an education, so that they can then disrobe and go to the city to work. Some are even dropped off by their families as the families cannot afford to keep and educate them. So, amongst the crop of young monks, you're not always getting the most committed class of students of the Vinaya rules. It's part of one reason why among the Thai people there has been an erosion of confidence among the lay people for the bhikkhus. The young monks are sometimes goofing off, and the elder monks have TVs and nice cars.

I'd like to think this is the exception and not the rule. When I was in Thailand, there were a number of very good and dedicated young men at the Wat who I expect will be very good monks if they stay in robes. The abbot of the (my) Wat is a fine scholar and an amazing community organizer. He's is doing all of the right things, and for the right reasons. It was he that had a monk assistant chase me (the temporary samanera) down in the street because I had worn my watch by mistake one day. He is a young abbot, but he is strict about Vinaya for all of the ordained at his Wat. For this reason, I have hope that for the Thai Sangha, the good monks will inspire the lay people to not give up on the Wat and the Dhamma.
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by DNS »

And to tie this discussion back to the topic, I have seen (and I believe others have too) that the monks and nuns of the Ajahn Chah tradition are very good on following Vinaya. When Ajahn Brahm was at my place, he did not accept any cash or even checks from any lay people. He just informed people who wanted to donate to him to his website where online donations can be made through lay stewards.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Lay people often don't know the difference between a minor offence and a more serious offence. They may be shocked when a monk drives a car (dukkata, or no offence depending on your POV), yet willingly donate cash to that same monk, which enables him to buy one (nissaggiyā pācittā) or run it. Receiving money is an offence for the monk and donating it is akusala kamma for the donor.

It is true that most monks nowadays accept and use money, only well-trained monks avoid it, as do all the western disciples of Ajahn Chah that I know of. This is why it is so shocking to see Ajahn Brahm engaging in trading his time in return for monetary donations to the Sangha.

Hinting is allowed for one who has nowhere to live,¹ but it is entirely the lay community's responsibility to raise funds for building monasteries if they wish to support monks and nuns. If lay people invite a monk in general terms to ask for whatever he needs, he can say that the Sangha needs a new Dhamma hall, or whatever. The lay community can then organise Dhamma talks or retreats, or entertainments, and use the donations thus received to build the Dhamma hall.

¹ Visuddhimagga — 113. As to the robe and the other requisites, no hint, indication, roundabout talk,or intimation about robes and alms food is allowable for a bhikkhu who is purifying his livelihood. But a hint, indication, or roundabout talk about a resting place is allowable for one who has not taken up the ascetic practices. [41]
114. Herein, a “hint” is when one who is getting the preparing of the ground, etc., done for the purpose of [making] a resting place is asked, “What is being done, venerable sir? Who is having it done?” and he replies, “No one”; or any other such giving of hints. An “indication” is saying, “Lay follower, where do you live?”—”In a mansion, venerable sir”—”But, lay follower, a mansion is not allowed for bhikkhus.” Or any other such giving of indication. “Roundabout talk” is saying, “The resting place for the Community of Bhikkhus is crowded”; or any other such oblique talk.
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Anagarika
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Anagarika »

I think Ajahn Brahm would do nearly anything (within reason and ethics) to help build a home for the Bhikkhunis. I admire him for that, and just like the Bhikkhuni ordinations, he knew he was going to take some hits, and he did. No pain, no gain. I look at his intention, and the end result, and feel that a strict application of Vinaya law is not necessary to these unique facts. The law is the law, but sometimes the law does not anticipate unique facts. I do not advocate bending the Vinaya to fit mundane facts, or to permit unwholesome or unskillful behavior, but in this case, I have a sense (hypothetically) that the First Council might not be offended. My projection for the day.
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Paribbajaka »

BuddhaSoup wrote:I think Ajahn Brahm would do nearly anything (within reason and ethics) to help build a home for the Bhikkhunis. I admire him for that, and just like the Bhikkhuni ordinations, he knew he was going to take some hits, and he did. No pain, no gain. I look at his intention, and the end result, and feel that a strict application of Vinaya law is not necessary to these unique facts. The law is the law, but sometimes the law does not anticipate unique facts. I do not advocate bending the Vinaya to fit mundane facts, or to permit unwholesome or unskillful behavior, but in this case, I have a sense (hypothetically) that the First Council might not be offended. My projection for the day.
:goodpost: I feel that there are many Bhikkhus in the world today who commit Vinaya offenses but because their offenses are so entrenched and instituionalized they are ignored. What Ajahn Brahm is doing is not orthodox by any means, but it is clearly in good humor and is being done for a very good cause. I wonder what later generations will think of him? The bad monk who told corny jokes and thumbed his nose at tradition, or the corageous monk who would stop at nothing to serve his community with love and compassion.

It's important to remember that the Buddha routinely advocated not clinging to views, not being inflexible, not looking at his teaching as an unchanging dogma. Would he approve of Ajahn Brahm's actions? I don't know, and unless someone in this thread personally met him, I find their opinion highly suspect as well.
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James the Giant
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by James the Giant »

Even if Ajahn Brahm was committing an offense, it would be a nissaggiya pacittiya offense.
That is, an offence of Confession with Forfeiture.
So he confesses to his brother monks, and forfeits the money to the community (but how can he forfeit money that is already with another community?)
And then he's all good again. A one minute job.
A one minute confession, balanced against a whole monastery for bhikkhunis.

Besides, he is not even in breach of this rule, as Ajahn Brahmali showed us in a previous post.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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reflection
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by reflection »

We could say it's bad or it's good. Argue whether it's an offense or it's not. Fact is, the site is online and it is going to happen anyway. So why worry? I say just relax whatever one may think about it. People do much more stupid things in the world - myself included. Much better to spend my energy there.

Just my two cents. I just hope he makes lots of money for the bhikkuni monastery.
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