Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

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Beautiful Breath
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Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Beautiful Breath » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:22 am

I was in Thailand recently and caught up with Sujin Boriharnwanaket who was giving a talk in Hua Hin. I admit hogging the microphone for the best part of two hours as I was fascinated with her take on the Abhidhamma. Effectively any form of formal practice is futile as it start with a 'self' having an agenda (if I have understood correctly). Therefore no daily practice. Quite a fresh and a blunt returning to the Dhammas as a precursor to anything and everything.

Anyone else come across her?

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby robertk » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:02 pm

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10888&hilit=Sujin
Has a thread with quotes from sujin

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby hopedhamma » Sun May 05, 2013 2:21 pm

sorry that i dig this thread up. I am thai and i'm archarn sujin student. I meet sujin very often, every other friday evening. If you have any questions, i will be very delighted to help at best i could

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 05, 2013 5:29 pm

hopedhamma wrote:sorry that i dig this thread up. I am thai and i'm archarn sujin student. I meet sujin very often, every other friday evening. If you have any questions, i will be very delighted to help at best i could



You might want to take a very careful look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952 It takes a long look the at Sujin ideas, which do not hold up well in terms of the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby cooran » Sun May 05, 2013 10:09 pm

Helllo all,

I would encourage anyone seriously interested in knowing and understanding what Khun Sujin actually teaches regarding The Abhidhamma and Vipassana to ask any questions they may have, and discuss topics at this website:

Dhammastudy Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/

Any query and discussion is taken seriously. Polite debate is encouraged and enjoyed. Most members are well-versed in, and all have a deep respect for, the Dhamma of the Theravada as taught in the three Tipitakas, and elucidated in the Commentaries. Some members have taught,or currently do teach, about Buddhism at Universities in Europe, Asia And America.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Beautiful Breath » Mon May 06, 2013 6:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
hopedhamma wrote:sorry that i dig this thread up. I am thai and i'm archarn sujin student. I meet sujin very often, every other friday evening. If you have any questions, i will be very delighted to help at best i could



You might want to take a very careful look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952 It takes a long look the at Sujin ideas, which do not hold up well in terms of the Buddha's teachings.


Can you give us a brief description of the main points of contention in term of how her ideas don't fit with the Buddhas teachings?

Thanks....

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 06, 2013 9:33 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
hopedhamma wrote:sorry that i dig this thread up. I am thai and i'm archarn sujin student. I meet sujin very often, every other friday evening. If you have any questions, i will be very delighted to help at best i could



You might want to take a very careful look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952 It takes a long look the at Sujin ideas, which do not hold up well in terms of the Buddha's teachings.


Can you give us a brief description of the main points of contention in term of how her ideas don't fit with the Buddhas teachings?

Thanks....
To put it simply, as robertk and dhamma-follower have shown us in the "causes" thread, that, according to Sujin, any formal practice of meditation as a way of putting the teachings of the Buddha into effect is driven by lobha and is "motivated by the wrong view of self," making such meditation practice -- to use robertk words -- a "wrong path," which would mean that teachers such as Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, Mahasi Sayadaw, Goenka, Pa Auk Sayadaw, Ven Thanissaro, Ven Sumedho etc, etc are wrong path teachers. In other words, all these teachers are not really teaching true Dhamma. Only Sujin and her followers, since they alone teach the right path, are the true followers of the true Dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby robertk » Tue May 07, 2013 6:51 am

any formal practice of meditation as a way of putting the teachings of the Buddha into effect is driven by lobha and is "motivated by the wrong view of self," making such meditation practice -- to use robertk words -- a "wrong path,"
I don't remember writing that. Do you have the full quote?

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 07, 2013 7:03 am

robertk wrote:
any formal practice of meditation as a way of putting the teachings of the Buddha into effect is driven by lobha and is "motivated by the wrong view of self," making such meditation practice -- to use robertk words -- a "wrong path,"
I don't remember writing that. Do you have the full quote?
You mean the quote where you characterized formal meditation as the defilement of attachment to rules and rituals, or where you state: "But what is thought to be mindfulness in common parlance is often some type of tedious focussing on an approximation of the here and now. This is merely concentration, without any sati or panna, and is a wrong path." And then there is this remarkable statement: "yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now
.
" I have not inapproperiately characterized your approach in this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby robertk » Tue May 07, 2013 7:09 am

There is a difference between vipassana and samatha
AS I said on the thread
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 07, 2013 7:14 am

robertk wrote:There is a difference between vipassana and samatha
AS I said on the thread
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
Having a differing approach to, differing view of, things is not the problem, but what is the problem here, as your words clearly show, you have demeaned and dismissed the formal practice traditions that do not fit your view of things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby BlackBird » Tue May 07, 2013 11:30 am

I did some poking around in this topic a few years back, and I recall coming to more or less the same conclusion Tilt has. I think Sujin and her followers at dhammastudygroup are doing the Dhamma a disservice and they've led themselves astray through their papanca. We all know what the Buddha has said about ascribing to and propogating a wrong view.

That's just my view anyway and perhaps it's also wrong, but I suspect it is not.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Dan74 » Tue May 07, 2013 12:29 pm

For my part, this conversation has been useful, primarily because it prompted me to re-examine why I practice, to look at how much opportunity for practice daily life offers and perhaps most of all, to examine consciously applying the Dhamma as learned, moment-by-moment in order to see and relinquish the "me" and "mine" in everything. The first two points were not new to me, but the mode of practice I glimpsed through Robertk's posts is very new and I would be happy to hear more detail about that (maybe in another thread).

On the other hand I do see that Khun Sujin's views on what isn't Right Effort, etc are very sectarian and can be harmful to people who are not yet confident in their practice. I think warning signs have been posting loud and clear. Like Tilt says, it may well work for her followers (and they may well be an lovely bunch of people) but the rest of us who practice differently don't have to accept or tolerate the wholesale rejection of formal practice this group preaches.

I'd also like to thank the people who have diligently held up this debate and brought some great materials to bear - it's been very interesting!
_/|\_

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Beautiful Breath » Tue May 07, 2013 2:58 pm

Oops! I didn't mean to open Pandoras Box!

I can't really comment as I come originally from a Prasangika stance (Pali not being my best subject) and consequently battle with many of the terms used.

The only thing that I struggled with - in terms of Khun Sujin's talks (or maybe the interpretation of her talks) - was what I see as a fundamental difference between the madhyamika prasangika take on ultimate reality and that of the Abbidhamma as I understood it. I am likely to have misunderstood though and its fair to say that this understanding has been gleaned as a result of responses by her 'followers' on the Yahoo Group.

I for one would like to see a thread looking at this from the bottom up as I seemed to join in many conversations on the Yahoo Group that had established much of their content prior to me joining in.

I am happy to start a thread to look at this if anyones interested? I'll give it a go and see what the response is, but please remember that not everyone is as well versed in Pali as they are in Sanskrit...be gentle with us! :anjali:

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 07, 2013 5:51 pm

Beautiful Breath wrote:
The only thing that I struggled with - in terms of Khun Sujin's talks (or maybe the interpretation of her talks) - was what I see as a fundamental difference between the madhyamika prasangika take on ultimate reality and that of the Abbidhamma as I understood it.
Do keep in mind, that not unlike the Madhyamaka, the Pali Abhidhamma tradition is layered historically. What one might hear talked about today is not necessarily how things were understood at an earlier time. http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh412.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Mr Man » Tue May 07, 2013 7:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:There is a difference between vipassana and samatha
AS I said on the thread
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
Having a differing approach to, differing view of, things is not the problem, but what is the problem here, as your words clearly show, you have demeaned and dismissed the formal practice traditions that do not fit your view of things.


I guess it is not that unusual for those with differing views to disparage other approaches. I think it goes a bit with the territory. Once upon a time these criticisms would have stayed within a community where possibly they would be relevant but now with the internet......

I remember being rather taken a back when I first came across some of Ven Sujato's clips on you tube in which he seemed to be less than positive about Ajahn Sumedho.

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 07, 2013 7:52 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:There is a difference between vipassana and samatha
AS I said on the thread
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
Having a differing approach to, differing view of, things is not the problem, but what is the problem here, as your words clearly show, you have demeaned and dismissed the formal practice traditions that do not fit your view of things.


I guess it is not that unusual for those with differing views to disparage other approaches. I think it goes a bit with the territory. Once upon a time these criticisms would have stayed within a community where possibly they would be relevant but now with the internet......

I remember being rather taken a back when I first came across some of Ven Sujato's clips on you tube in which he seemed to be less than positive about Ajahn Sumedho.
I shrug my shoulders. The Sujin criticism seem to be built into the structure of her teachings, at least as her teachings are being portrayed here. That aside, while I do not find the methodology of Sujin path of practice convincing in face of suttas and the traditional understanding as outlined in the Visuddhimagga, from what I have seen of the Sujin method of practice, the criticisms of the other traditions in a we-have-it-right-you-don't style, seems quite unnecessary and divisive. It is too bad.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue May 07, 2013 8:02 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:There is a difference between vipassana and samatha
AS I said on the thread
Thus for one who is intent on samatha , who lives a secluded life then the term formal practice may fit. But I still maintain that for the development of vipassana one is ready to face any object anytime and that preferencing certain postures or activities is actually counterproductive.
Having a differing approach to, differing view of, things is not the problem, but what is the problem here, as your words clearly show, you have demeaned and dismissed the formal practice traditions that do not fit your view of things.


Precisely. If the Buddha's warning (that one of the main reasons for the decline of the teachings would be the lack of respect for meditation) is true, these people are doing a terrible disservice to the dhamma.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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Re: Met Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Thailand

Postby robertk » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:21 am

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dha ... ges/136999
S: I heard the following on a recording (Bkk Oct 2007) and I think it's relevant and helpful:
****
A: I think more about visual object and sound.

AS: In what aspect?

A: When I open my eyes and I have brief thoughts - "oops, shape, form and people again. I'm seeing shapes….more people and no awareness of visual object."

AS: That's the way it is, but no awareness of that which is seen. Not the true nature of that which is seen.
Instead of the usual thinking about people and things, after having heard a lot about visible object, this can be the condition for developing the understanding - not 'I' who develops, but it's the understanding right now that what is seen now is so real. It's just a reality, an element, which can be seen. There is no one in the world or any moment it arises. There are only different realities. No one here - only different realities and we begin to understand different realities such as visible object is not seeing and sound is not hearing and thinking is not 'I', not seeing or hearing. Different elements all day from birth to death.

A: Interestingly, I don't even think about them when eating.

Suk: Attachment

A: Different accumulations for different objects. I think about visual object and sound, but I don't think about nutrition and taste.

AS: So one can see that realities all arise and fall away in split seconds and when there is no understanding of one then there must be stories and things all around, all the time until panna (right understanding) understands a reality and then another reality and any reality as fast, because we usually talk about detachment. It cannot arise at will. One has to know that without understanding it's impossible to be detached. For example, when there is the idea or intention or whatever it is or a moment of awareness of a reality, it falls away, but since it's not directly experienced like that, there is sometimes or always thinking or concern about that with some idea without understanding that it's another reality arising in succession.

We get stuck on one object like "I know that" or "it just happened" or "it has just fallen away" - long moments, many moments for that experience, instead of becoming detached and being able to be aware of other realities instantly and to know whether there is attachment or not. If one knows for oneself whether there is attachment to that object which sati is aware of and panna understands, but still there is attachment until nothing but different realities arising and falling away in succession. Otherwise there's no way to become detached and then be aware of other realities instantly.

So there are many things to know, whether there is still attachment or less attachment - depending on panna only. That's why no need to think about anything else, just understand at the moment of hearing, consdering about reality which appears then, like visible object right now.

The development is that which begins to understand whatever is seen is just a reality before there can be detachment from it.

Suk: It seems that instead of understanding what arises, because of attachment to self, we're asking about this and that - "what might be", "what was" - not enough panna.

AS: By understanding this, panna develops until it knows what's the truth and what's the way.

R: So awareness becomes more frequent as understanding grows.

AS: By conditions. No expectation. Otherwise lobha (attachment) comes again instantly. So panna has to understand lobha as it is, so lobha will have less conditions to arise.
******

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