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sutta support for vipassana jhanas? - Dhamma Wheel

sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
alan...
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sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby alan... » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:18 am

is it in there?

is it possible that, considering the almost uniform ignoring of the whole body similes about jhana by the commentaries, the vipassana jhanas are closer to what the buddha was talking about?

it makes sense, he talks about people gaining insight while in jhana frequently but the commentaries say one must come out of jhana to do insight.

i'm intrigued and perplexed. i've been a vipassana person for years but always sat in commentary meditation and more recently i've been trying to reconcile my practice with the suttas.

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retrofuturist
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

alan...
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby alan... » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:41 am


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marc108
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby marc108 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:02 am

:goodpost:

IMO: Vipassana Jhana = Sutta Jhana
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

Samma
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Samma » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:08 am

Last edited by Samma on Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Mojo
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Mojo » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:17 am

With this topic in mind, which, if any, teachers teach the Anapanasati Sutta in such a way that the vipassana jhanas are attained and not the commentarial jhanas?

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marc108
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby marc108 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:24 am

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

Samma
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Samma » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:45 am


pegembara
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby pegembara » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:11 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

alan...
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby alan... » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:30 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:46 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pegembara
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby pegembara » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:59 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

pegembara
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby pegembara » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:32 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:17 am

I'm still not clear about the labels being used in this discussion - sutta jhana, commentarial jhana and vipassana jhana. Can anyone give a brief description of the differences?
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

Bakmoon
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby Bakmoon » Thu May 02, 2013 8:14 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu May 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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reflection
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby reflection » Thu May 02, 2013 9:13 pm

Last edited by reflection on Thu May 02, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 02, 2013 9:27 pm


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reflection
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby reflection » Thu May 02, 2013 9:32 pm


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manas
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Postby manas » Thu May 02, 2013 11:02 pm

i.was.wondering.where.in.the.suttas
it.is.mentioned.that.one.will.meditate
on.the.breath/body.and.eventually
a.light.of.some.variety.is.supposed
to.come.forth.

i.have.tried.to.read.all.the.suttas.that
describe.jhana.practice,but.i.have.not
come.across.anything.which.suggests.that
from.jhanas.1to4,we.will."get."anything.other
than.this.body,in.and.of.itself,as.not.only
the.satipatthana.sutta.suggests,but.also
the.anapanasati.sutta.suggests.

my.readings.suggest.that.we.will.clearly
perceive.just.this— the.body.in.and.of.itself,
with.its.breathing.process.

not.that."meditate.on.the.breath,and
at.some.stage.it.will.disappear,and
something.else.will.become.your.object."

quite.the.contrary.in.fact.

it.would.appear.to.me.that.in.jhanas.1to4,
our.object,the.body/its.breath.remains.throughout;
what.will.change.is.our.perception.of.it.

(and.probably.a.few.other.things.too,but
i.will.stick.with.the.limits.of.my.current
understanding,which.is.of.course.limited.)

the.mind.with.hindrances.can.perceive.the.breath.as."boring"
it.cant.appreciate.the.beauty.of.such.a.simple,neutral.object
but.if.cleansed.of.the.hindrances,a.different.kind.of.mind.arises
one.that.perceives."the.simple".as.beautiful
that.is.sensitive.to.rapture.with.each.in.and.out.breath.

same.object,but
different.perception
different.feeling.

im.wondering.if.anyone.else.thinks.in.this.way.

metta
:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."


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