sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Mojo wrote:With this topic in mind, which, if any, teachers teach the Anapanasati Sutta in such a way that the vipassana jhanas are attained and not the commentarial jhanas?
There is no way to do it any other way; any teacher who teaches Anapanasati will teach sutta Jhanas. Commentarial Jhana is too deep for Vipassana.
porpoise wrote:I'm still not clear about the labels being used in this discussion - sutta jhana, commentarial jhana and vipassana jhana. Can anyone give a brief description of the differences?
Sutta Jhana refers to the relatively "light" Jhana that the Buddha discusses in the practice, one in which there is still thought and sense awareness. Commentarial Jhana refers to the later Vissudhimagga Jhanas, which are much deeper states of pure Samatha, often with no awareness of the body at all. Vipassana Jhana is a term invented in the last century to distinguish Jhanas in which insight can still be gained - it is essentially synonymous with sutta Jhanas.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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reflection
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by reflection »

reflection wrote:Just to point out the distinction "sutta" vs "commentary" is deceiving. Of course those who practice the latter kind also think the suttas describe them and that the Buddha taught them.
.. and may even disagree with the commentaries.

Better call them 'easy' vs 'hard' interpretations, 'bodily' vs 'non-bodily', 'shallow' vs 'deep' or whatever.

Also, it's not just black and white.

:anjali:
Last edited by reflection on Thu May 02, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by mikenz66 »

reflection wrote:Just to point out the distinction "sutta" vs "commentary" is deceiving. Of course those who practice the latter kind also think the suttas describe them and that the Buddha taught them.
It's not just a matter of "sutta" vs "commentary". A number of teachers, such as Ajahn Brahm, teach deep jhanas based entirely on the suttas, with no reference to Commentaries. Therefore, classifying his teaching as "commentary jhanas" would be somewhat confusing. It might be better to simply talk about light and deep jhanas.

:anjali:
Mike
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reflection
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by reflection »

mikenz66 wrote:
reflection wrote:Just to point out the distinction "sutta" vs "commentary" is deceiving. Of course those who practice the latter kind also think the suttas describe them and that the Buddha taught them.
It's not just a matter of "sutta" vs "commentary". A number of teachers, such as Ajahn Brahm, teach deep jhanas based entirely on the suttas, with no reference to Commentaries. Therefore, classifying his teaching as "commentary jhanas" would be somewhat confusing. It might be better to simply talk about light and deep jhanas.

:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the reply. I was editing my writing while you posted this and it also reflects this. Good point.

Better would be to discuss with a description of the experiences instead of a keyword. But if people want to label things, well.. better label it with something that at least has room for the views of everybody.
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manas
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by manas »

i.was.wondering.where.in.the.suttas
it.is.mentioned.that.one.will.meditate
on.the.breath/body.and.eventually
a.light.of.some.variety.is.supposed
to.come.forth.

i.have.tried.to.read.all.the.suttas.that
describe.jhana.practice,but.i.have.not
come.across.anything.which.suggests.that
from.jhanas.1to4,we.will."get."anything.other
than.this.body,in.and.of.itself,as.not.only
the.satipatthana.sutta.suggests,but.also
the.anapanasati.sutta.suggests.

my.readings.suggest.that.we.will.clearly
perceive.just.this— the.body.in.and.of.itself,
with.its.breathing.process.

not.that."meditate.on.the.breath,and
at.some.stage.it.will.disappear,and
something.else.will.become.your.object."

quite.the.contrary.in.fact.

it.would.appear.to.me.that.in.jhanas.1to4,
our.object,the.body/its.breath.remains.throughout;
what.will.change.is.our.perception.of.it.

(and.probably.a.few.other.things.too,but
i.will.stick.with.the.limits.of.my.current
understanding,which.is.of.course.limited.)

the.mind.with.hindrances.can.perceive.the.breath.as."boring"
it.cant.appreciate.the.beauty.of.such.a.simple,neutral.object
but.if.cleansed.of.the.hindrances,a.different.kind.of.mind.arises
one.that.perceives."the.simple".as.beautiful
that.is.sensitive.to.rapture.with.each.in.and.out.breath.

same.object,but
different.perception
different.feeling.

im.wondering.if.anyone.else.thinks.in.this.way.

metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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retrofuturist
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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manas
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by manas »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi.retro,

that.does.refer.to.light,however
the.aim.seems.to.be.a."brightened.mind"
furthermore.the.light.is.the.object.in.this.instance,
from.the.very.beginning;
what.i.was.questioning.was.the.notion.of
"meditate.on.the.breath,and.you.will.get.something.else"
thats.what.i.was.questioning.

anyway.i.had.better.admit.that.there.must.be
more.than.one.way.to.undertake.samadhi
and.more.than.one.way.to.experience.it.

metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Polar Bear
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by Polar Bear »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
Metta,
Retro. :)
I always thought this was a bit strange when compared to this sutta:
"There are some brahmans & contemplatives, brahman, who have the perception of 'day' when it is night, and of 'night' when it is day. This, I tell you, is their being in a dwelling of delusion. As for me, I have the perception of 'day' when it is day, and of 'night' when it is night. If anyone, when speaking rightly, were to say, 'A being not subject to delusion has appeared in the world for the benefit & happiness of many, out of sympathy for the world, for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings,' he would rightly be speaking of me.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The perception of day when it is night is where these suttas may conflict. One says it's a good thing to do and the other says it's delusional. Perhaps I'm just reading contradiction where there isn't any, so anyone, feel free to edify me on the matter.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Sylvester
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by Sylvester »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manas,

There is this...
AN 4.41: Samadhi Sutta wrote:"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
Metta,
Retro. :)
I always thought this was a bit strange when compared to this sutta:
"There are some brahmans & contemplatives, brahman, who have the perception of 'day' when it is night, and of 'night' when it is day. This, I tell you, is their being in a dwelling of delusion. As for me, I have the perception of 'day' when it is day, and of 'night' when it is night. If anyone, when speaking rightly, were to say, 'A being not subject to delusion has appeared in the world for the benefit & happiness of many, out of sympathy for the world, for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings,' he would rightly be speaking of me.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The perception of day when it is night is where these suttas may conflict. One says it's a good thing to do and the other says it's delusional. Perhaps I'm just reading contradiction where there isn't any, so anyone, feel free to edify me on the matter.

Check this out - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p124726
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: It might be better to simply talk about light and deep jhanas.
Or perhaps to recognise that the absorption factors can be present in varying degrees?
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Pacceka1996
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Re: sutta support for vipassana jhanas?

Post by Pacceka1996 »

pegembara wrote:
Mojo wrote:With this topic in mind, which, if any, teachers teach the Anapanasati Sutta in such a way that the vipassana jhanas are attained and not the commentarial jhanas?
The stages through which you have already passed — watching the breath come in and out, long or short — should be enough to make you realize — even though you may not have focused on the idea — that the breath is inconstant. It's continually changing, from in long and out long to in short and out short, from heavy to light and so forth. This should enable you to read the breath, to understand that there's nothing constant to it at all. It changes on its own from one moment to the next.

Once you have realized the inconstancy of the body — in other words, of the breath — you'll be able to see the subtle sensations of pleasure and pain in the realm of feeling. So now you watch feelings, right there in the same place where you've been focusing on the breath. Even though they are feelings that arise from the stillness of the body or mind, they're nevertheless inconstant even in that stillness. They can change. So these changing sensations in the realm of feeling exhibit inconstancy in and of themselves, just like the breath.

When you see change in the body, change in feelings, and change in the mind, this is called seeing the Dhamma, i.e., seeing inconstancy. You have to understand this correctly. Practicing the first tetrad of breath meditation contains all four tetrads of breath meditation. In other words, you see the inconstancy of the body and then contemplate feeling. You see the inconstancy of feeling and then contemplate the mind. The mind, too, is inconstant. This inconstancy of the mind is the Dhamma. To see the Dhamma is to see this inconstancy.

When you see the true nature of all inconstant things, then keep track of that inconstancy at all times, with every in-and-out breath. Keep this up in all your activities to see what happens next.

What happens next is dispassion. Letting go. This is something you have to know for yourself.

Upasika Kee http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ensed.html

Very Nice.
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