http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.htmlWith full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.'
Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
kirk5a wrote:With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.'
"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Since one cannot willfully "let go," I do not read "letting go" in this passage as a practice; rather, it is in the insight that arises from the causes and conditions cultivated by one's practice that the letting go happens. But the idea of letting go certainly can be a guide for practice.porpoise wrote:Interesting quote. You seem to be pointing to "letting go" as a method of practice, but the OP seems more about the nature of the goal of practice, ie awakening - or am I missing the point?tiltbillings wrote: Gone to the beyond of becoming,
you let go of in front,
let go of behind,
let go of between.
With a heart everywhere let-go,
you don't come again to birth
& aging. Dhp 348
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Buddhist gnosis is fundamentally pragmatic: if it is a gnosis which leads to liberation, then it's valuable. Knowledge of becoming-- the causes and conditions of things-- which includes dependent origination and is realized through jhana, is such a pragmatic gnosis.
I'd say the experienced result of 'letting go' is the guide for practice, more so than the mere idea of letting go.tiltbillings wrote:But the idea of letting go certainly can be a guide for practice.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Yes to all of what you said, but, of course, one must start from where one is.Viscid wrote:Buddhist gnosis is fundamentally pragmatic: if it is a gnosis which leads to liberation, then it's valuable. Knowledge of becoming-- the causes and conditions of things-- which includes dependent origination and is realized through jhana, is such a pragmatic gnosis.I'd say the experienced result of 'letting go' is the guide for practice, more so than the mere idea of letting go.tiltbillings wrote:But the idea of letting go certainly can be a guide for practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
I would say it's both because they are both the same thing, not separate things. Ignorance about 5 aggregates causes clinging, clinging to 5 aggregates causes afflictions, with knowledge of things as really are, ignorance is removed thereby simultaneously destroying afflictions because without ignorance there can be no clinging.tiltbillings did not wrote: an object of knowledge which is the goal, or is it sheer destruction of afflictions"?
To what extent do you see the path in terms of gnosis?
Or something like that.
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Yes, that was pretty much my intent in the OP.porpoise wrote:...the OP seems more about the nature of the goal of practice, ie awakening - or am I missing the point?
Interesting that people use various terms for that goal, each of which has a slightly different connotation. "Enlightenment" implies some sort of knowledge. "Awakening" is more like an experiential state. "Nibbana", the Buddha's term, is a metaphor referring to extinguishing, cooling or cessation; suggesting the path is simply about divesting oneself of ignorance, rather than gaining knowledge.
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
"Enlightenment" and "awakening" are both translations of the term bodhi.Lazy_eye wrote:Interesting that people use various terms for that goal, each of which has a slightly different connotation. "Enlightenment" implies some sort of knowledge. "Awakening" is more like an experiential state.
There is no realization of nibbāna without knowledge/gnosis of nibbāna (nibbāna ñāṇa), which in the suttas is sometimes also called the knowledge/gnosis of elimination/destruction (khayeñāṇa), that is, the knowledge that the outflows, fetters, etc. have been terminated.Lazy_eye wrote:"Nibbana", the Buddha's term, is a metaphor referring to extinguishing, cooling or cessation; suggesting the path is simply about divesting oneself of ignorance, rather than gaining knowledge.
Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
I imagine it's difficult to really distinguish gnosis leading to Nibbana versus gnosis of Nibbana itself-- if you know what leads to Nibbana surely you have some idea of what Nibbana itself is.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
When an enlightened being dies, the aggregates cease, so there is no more knowledge. So in the 10-fold version of the 8-fold path, which happens in some places in the suttas, the last two factors are stated "knowledge leads to liberation", not the other way around. Thus the final goal really is liberation, not wisdom.
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Though doesn't liberation result from wisdom?reflection wrote: Thus the final goal really is liberation, not wisdom.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Yes, I see. For me "letting go" feels like a result of practice rather than a method of practice. But IMO this means letting go of craving and grasping, not letting go of wisdom.tiltbillings wrote:Since one cannot willfully "let go," I do not read "letting go" in this passage as a practice; rather, it is in the insight that arises from the causes and conditions cultivated by one's practice that the letting go happens. But the idea of letting go certainly can be a guide for practice.porpoise wrote:Interesting quote. You seem to be pointing to "letting go" as a method of practice, but the OP seems more about the nature of the goal of practice, ie awakening - or am I missing the point?tiltbillings wrote: Gone to the beyond of becoming,
you let go of in front,
let go of behind,
let go of between.
With a heart everywhere let-go,
you don't come again to birth
& aging. Dhp 348
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
The Buddha made a pragmatic decision to just teach on the problem of suffering - that doesn't mean all his other realisations weren't of value.Viscid wrote:Buddhist gnosis is fundamentally pragmatic: if it is a gnosis which leads to liberation, then it's valuable.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
Don't forget, wisdom is not a thing. Truths are cognitions.porpoise wrote: Yes, I see. For me "letting go" feels like a result of practice rather than a method of practice. But IMO this means letting go of craving and grasping, not letting go of wisdom.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Is there a gnostic element to the goals of Buddhism?
I would think so. But that in term would result from all the other factors of the path, sila & samadhi. But those aren't the goal either. There is a sutta somewhere that discusses it, in MN I think, but I can't find it.porpoise wrote:Though doesn't liberation result from wisdom?reflection wrote: Thus the final goal really is liberation, not wisdom.