Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby chownah » Wed May 01, 2013 3:21 pm

If one really comes to grip with the elimination of all doctrines of self then the issues of kamma and rebirth disappear. It is the fact that one has not come to grips with the elimination of all doctrines of self which creates the perceived problems of kamma and rebirth.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby binocular » Wed May 01, 2013 6:23 pm

chownah wrote:If one really comes to grip with the elimination of all doctrines of self then the issues of kamma and rebirth disappear. It is the fact that one has not come to grips with the elimination of all doctrines of self which creates the perceived problems of kamma and rebirth.


This is a truism. I'm not sure how helpful it is.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby binocular » Wed May 01, 2013 6:24 pm

ground wrote:I never knows. When I ceases knowing unfolds and kamma and rebirth cease ... if there is distraction I arises again and knowing is veiled.


Awww. I don't believe you. ;)
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby manas » Thu May 02, 2013 1:44 am

martian wrote:If what we know as "I" is just a product of the continuous interaction of the 5 Aggregates and the "I" that is reborn is really a different "I" produced again, by the continuous interaction of the aggregates,
then why would the present "I" be concerned about the condition the new "I" will be born into? A typical explanation about rebirth is a flame being transferred from one lamp to another. Even in this example the flame from the first lamp have no connection with the flame that will be produced next. The brightness or dullness of the first flame with not affect the quality of the next flame. If this is the case, then is there any need to be concerned about kamma beyond the present life and furthermore, rebirth? Hoping for some clarity. Thanks.


memories.are.transferred,and.if.the.suttas.are.to.be.believed,
not.only.memories.of.the.previous.life,but.also.memories.of.lives
lived.before.that.one,going.back.through.immeasureable.time.

the.problem.is.we.just.cant.currently.remember.our.previous.lives;
aiui.they.are.stored.deep.in.the.mind,but.we.cant.currently.access.those.
memories.(doesnt.mean.theyre.not.there,though)...and.so,most.of.us.folks
identify.inordinately.with.this.body/mind.as."who.we.are",
not.able.to.see.how.mind.and.body.changed.from.life.to.life.

if.one.day.we.gain.the.sufficient.level.of.virtue.and.meditative.ability
to.be.able.to.recall.as.many.of.those.past.lives.as.we.care.to.examine,
im.guessing.we.will.be.recalling.having.done.all.sorts.of.things.over
countless.previous.lives,and.having.experienced.all.manner.of.births,
pleasures,pains,deaths,etc.

the.next.step.aiui.would.involve.perceiving.how.wholesome.actions.led
to.favourable.results,and.unwholesome.actions.to.unfavourable.results.

but.by.then,one.would.have.a.much.wider.view.of.things,and.would.see.how
it.really.does.matter.what.beings.do,because.of.the.results.of.kamma.

imagine.someone.experiencing.the.painful.life.of.an.intensively.farmed
animal...that.being.would.not.recall.the.unwholesome.actions.that.led
to.his/her.current.misery,but.thats.merely.an.issue.of.deficient.memory;
it.doesnt.change.the.law.of.causality,which.is.operating.whether
or.not.we.know.about.it.

theres.a.place.in.the.suttas.where.the.Buddha.is.quoted.as.having.said,
that.if.beings.only.knew.like.He.knew.(having.directly.seen.kamma.and
the.results.of.kamma),they.would.never.kill,lie,steal,take.intoxicants,
or.engage.in.illicit.sex.(He.then.turns.it.around.to.the.positive;if.beings
only.knew.of.the.results.of.kindness,truthfulness,generousity.etc,they
would.surely.practice.those.wholesome.things).Our.problem,as.always,
seems.to.be.ignorance!...simply,"not.knowing".

(i.hope.i.got.that.all.right,but.thats.my.current.understanding).

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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby manas » Thu May 02, 2013 2:12 am

Hi.martian

heres.a.post.and.a.link.from.another.topic,that
might.be.helpful.in.casting.light.on.this.one

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Ven T's translator note for SN 22.36 wrote:Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined.

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)


aiui.we.ought.to.avoid.trying.to.figure.out
"who.am.i,really?"
literally,it.seems.pointless.to.ask.this;
and.instead.put.our.energy.into.the.enquiry
what.is.stress?,and.how.can.it.be.ended?

:anjali:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby ground » Thu May 02, 2013 3:17 am

binocular wrote:
ground wrote:I never knows. When I ceases knowing unfolds and kamma and rebirth cease ... if there is distraction I arises again and knowing is veiled.


Awww. I don't believe you. ;)

There is neither a need to believe the ideas that arise upon the eye contacting meaningless forms aka words, nor does there inhere an appeal to believe these conditioned ideas in these forms aka words. Ideas are just expressing themselves by means of words. :sage:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby hopedhamma » Thu May 02, 2013 12:59 pm

Dhamma is everything real, and everything real is dhamma. Before knowing exactly about there's no us, you need to understand the real meaning of it.

Dhamma happens without anyone forcing to happen, When we open our eyes, we can't force ourselves not to see, When going to bed and close our eyes, we can't force not to think. Everything happens, it has happened because of the factors and the cumulative heaps that we have done, thought, seen, tasted, touched, heard in the past. What we has done now and in the past is called "kamma" and the result of it is Vipaka. Seeing, hearing, and every senses happens because they are Vipaka Citta.

This means that Kamma is also the factor for Vipaka and can't be forced not to happen. The rebirth of a person is also from Kamma as a factor since a person is still deep in all types of passion lopa, moha, and tosa and these 3 passions are the factor of endless reborn.

The enlightenment of the knowing of there's no "i" is also from the factor that a person patipati dhamma and knowing exactly that there is really no "i". The real understanding of no "i" starts from Nama Rupa Parichetayana which is the first yanna of becoming Sodabun which is also from the result of Satipattana.

The thinking of "why care about kamma & rebirth" is also dhamma and when Satipattana arises knowing that it is just the namma or thinking, then at that point, there's no "i" at that moment and it is the highest Kusala of all because it arises with Panya.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Postby binocular » Thu May 02, 2013 1:07 pm

ground wrote:There is neither a need to believe the ideas that arise upon the eye contacting meaningless forms aka words, nor does there inhere an appeal to believe these conditioned ideas in these forms aka words. Ideas are just expressing themselves by means of words. :sage:


I've heard this one once:

Tectonic plates shift. After many kalpas of ardent meditation, each on his own tectonic plate, two impersonalist yogis are now facing eachother, though their transcendentally inclined vision is slightly blurred from the aeons of settling dust and lice-ridden scruffy hair. Angered by the existence of an other - oh, the competition! - they start fighting, pulling on their lice- and flea-ridden hair and beards, scratching eachother with millenial nails. Eventually, each yogi picks up a rock and has a go at the other one. As one's skull proves itself to be softer than the other's, one yogi prevails, exclaiming "I am the impersonalist!"

:yingyang:
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