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Everlasting Happiness ... not? - Dhamma Wheel

Everlasting Happiness ... not?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mindstar
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Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby Mindstar » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:24 pm

The buddha pointed out very well that we are able to realise nonself through the jhanic meditation experience.
But there is another important point in the buddhist philosophy that i have never heard anyone formulate a question on.
He also said there is no place/reality in the universe where everlasting happiness can be experienced.
As far as i have understood it he had a twofold conclusion on this topic:
1. He has already experinced all levels of reality and couldn`t find one that was not impermanent.
2. Through his statement of how the mind works he excluded that such a place can exist and can ever be created.

Is it also possible to realise both of these statements through the jhanic experience?
Or did he realise these because he was a special beeing with an extraordinary experience of samsara?

Higher than lordship over all earth,
Higher than sojourning in heavens supreme,
Higher than empire over all the worlds,
Is Fruit of Entrance to the Dhamma Stream.
—Dhammapada

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reflection
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby reflection » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 pm

Hi Mindstar,

This is my understanding.

Although I think it's good to say one probably needs some level of samadhi before having insights, it seems to me you are still trying to answer this question on a level of intellect. But it's not like that. Seeing not-self and impermanence is not by intellectually excluding options or investigating all kinds of options. It's a result of seeing things directly as being impermanent, not sustainable.

Tastes in the mouth don't last forever. Everybody knows this. You may eat something nice, but very soon all taste is gone or replaced by something else. So this taste was impermanent. You don't have to taste all foods in the world to see this, or have to understand how taste buds work. It's right there in your own experience. As a result, you don't expect any eternal happiness in food.

But it's a bit deeper because not a single taste can disappear, but the entire consciousness of taste. Often we are not aware of taste at all, there is no contact with this sense and thus no consciousness of it. So if this consciousness itself doesn't sustain, why expect anything eternal in it?

Now extrapolate this to the six senses. Do you get the idea? You don't have to investigate anywhere outside of the present moment. The problem, of course, is not so much taste consciousness. People can let this go quite easily. However, most people find it hard letting go of mind consciousness mainly. As a result, they have a sense of continuity in it and that's where a lot of people try to find a :quote: heaven :quote: .

With metta,
Reflection

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Mindstar
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby Mindstar » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:15 pm


Higher than lordship over all earth,
Higher than sojourning in heavens supreme,
Higher than empire over all the worlds,
Is Fruit of Entrance to the Dhamma Stream.
—Dhammapada

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reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby reflection » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 am

Hi, Good thoughts. I like this topic and wonder why nobody else partakes. But here is my understanding:

It's not like science where you have to take many courses on different subjects. You don't have to put lots of things together and understand them all to get a picture of how the universe works. All teachings of the Buddha are just entry doors to the truth. When teaching, the Buddha extrapolated those doors from knowing what's behind these doors. This thing behind, that's where he had confidence in.

Say you try to explain me what you look like. Red hair? Small nose? Or whatever. ;) Based on your information, I create a picture in my head - this is me trying to put it all together. But if afterward I simply saw you, I wouldn't have that need of putting it all together anymore, because the perspective has been totally shifted. One doesn't talk about 90% or 100% right.. neither is it based on faith - it's just seeing.

What is this picture if we are not talking about you, but about the way things are? The picture is nibbana. Saying heaven realms are impermanent is like saying your hear is red, it's only descriptive. But those who see nibbana directly understand nothing lasts, without needing to see a heaven realm. The problem is, one can't take a picture of nibbana.. sadly. Otherwise the Buddha would have showed it to anybody and there would be no doubt. We need to see it directly - jhanas can be useful there to see more clearly.

Anjali! :anjali:

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Mindstar
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby Mindstar » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Hey reflection i like this topic too thanks for your interesting input :popcorn:

The recipe for nibbana is a mix of jhana and dhamma. If someone had only one of these he wouldn`t be able to progress.
I have heard if an ordinary person had a jhanic experience he would most likely just delight in this form of bliss endlessly.
It is only when he meets a buddha on the way that he gets awakened through the teachings of the dhamma.
Or in other word the jhanic experience in itself does not reveal the truth entirely , nibanna remains hidden.

Its the magical dhamma that puts things right and gives clear vision on the path. In essence its a set of views called "right view".
These views seem not to be easy to come by, Buddhas are extraordinarily rare according to the suttas.
Maybe its better to ask: How can i realise right view for my self?

With Metta
Mindstar

Higher than lordship over all earth,
Higher than sojourning in heavens supreme,
Higher than empire over all the worlds,
Is Fruit of Entrance to the Dhamma Stream.
—Dhammapada

5heaps
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby 5heaps » Wed May 01, 2013 6:17 am

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reflection
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby reflection » Wed May 01, 2013 3:35 pm


hopedhamma
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Re: Everlasting Happiness ... not?

Postby hopedhamma » Thu May 02, 2013 2:40 pm



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