Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by mikenz66 »

binocular wrote:But I'd really like you to explain why you think kamma and rebirth have nothing to do with moral justice.
retrofuturist wrote: Because kamma has to do with sankharas (formations) that arise in dependence upon avijja (ignorance).
binocular wrote: And how is this divorced from issues of moral justice?
Kamma would operate regardless of whether or not anyone in the universe came up with this concept or vague feeling of "moral justice".
[/quote]
Perhaps "moral justice" is a poor choice of terminology. Nevertheless, in numerous suttas it is said that bad kamma leads to bad results. And kamma is defined in "moral" terms (killing, stealing, etc...):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#kamma

:anjali:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Yes that's true, but such examples are just outward manifestations and expressions of...

The Roots of Good and Evil
http://www.virtuescience.com/roots.html

As explained by Nyanaponika Thera, it is the underlying quality of the mind-state underpinning the action that designates the qualitative nature of kamma. In other words, it's not about "cosmic scales" like some people seem to think.... it's about paticcasamuppada based on their kusala or akusala action.
Nyanaponika Thera wrote:The social and political motivations for moral conduct proposed to modern man may not openly contradict the basic sentiments of morality, but as their structures are bound to specific historical conditions and reflect the varying selfinterests and prejudices of the dominant social group, the values they propose are highly relative, lacking universal validity. In contrast, Buddhist ethics, being based on psychological fact and not on external contingencies, provides a core of moral principles inherently free from relativistic limitations, valid for all time and under all circumstances.
Contrast the Buddha's "psychological fact" with Bhikkhu Bodhi's meandering speculation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by mikenz66 »

Sure but the suttas do say that bad actions have bad results:
"Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Mike
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ground
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by ground »

binocular wrote:
ground wrote:
martian wrote: So, out of compassion for the next "I", we try to accumulate good kamma in this present "I"?
No, ouf of compassion for the potentially 5 succeeding aggregates, self-perceiving themselves as "I" and "mine" surrounded by equally ignorant self-perceiving phenomena, no kamma should be accumulated at all.
Compassion can only be had for living beings, not for things.
Unless you can show otherwise?
There is nothing to show. Knowing can emulate a diversity of phenomena. :sage:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by binocular »

retrofuturist wrote:
binocular wrote:And how is this divorced from issues of moral justice?
Kamma would operate regardless of whether or not anyone in the universe came up with this concept or vague feeling of "moral justice".
Leaving aside for the moment that a "feeling of moral justice" itself is kamma too -
I think I see where the problem s then:

Bikkhu Bodhi said:

"It is obvious that moral justice cannot be found within the limits of a single life. Immoral people might enjoy happiness and success, while people who lead lives of high integrity are bowed down beneath pain and misery. For the principle of moral equilibrium to work, some type of survival beyond the present life is required. Two different forms of survival are possible: an eternal afterlife in heaven/hell or a sequence of rebirths. Of these two, the hypothesis of rebirth seems far more compatible with moral justice than an eternal afterlife; for any finite good action, it seems, must eventually exhaust its potency, and no finite bad action, no matter how bad, should warrant eternal damnation."
from Does Rebirth Make Sense?

and you commented:
I wish Bhikkhu Bodhi wouldn't go off on flowery tangents like this... kamma/rebirth has nothing to do with "moral justice" and appealing to the view of moral justice as legitimisation for the necessity of kamma/rebirth is so logically flawed I don't even know where to begin.
A sense of moral justice is something humans have and, arguably, need.

The way I understand Bhikkhu Bodhi is hat he means that appealing to moral justice is necessary for belief in kamma/rebirth .


That said, it seems that you are implicitly coming from the position that human moral concerns are somehow divorced from what happens in this universe (ie. kamma).

Do you believe kamma would operate regardless of whether or not there are humans in this universe?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by binocular »

ground wrote:There is nothing to show. Knowing can emulate a diversity of phenomena.
And you have compassion for rocks?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by ground »

binocular wrote:
ground wrote:There is nothing to show. Knowing can emulate a diversity of phenomena.
And you have compassion for rocks?
Knowing can emulate a diversity of phenomena. :sage:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by binocular »

I know!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by ground »

I never knows. When I ceases knowing unfolds and kamma and rebirth cease ... if there is distraction I arises again and knowing is veiled. :sage:
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by Lazy_eye »

martian wrote:If what we know as "I" is just a product of the continuous interaction of the 5 Aggregates and the "I" that is reborn is really a different "I" produced again, by the continuous interaction of the aggregates,
then why would the present "I" be concerned about the condition the new "I" will be born into? A typical explanation about rebirth is a flame being transferred from one lamp to another. Even in this example the flame from the first lamp have no connection with the flame that will be produced next. The brightness or dullness of the first flame with not affect the quality of the next flame. If this is the case, then is there any need to be concerned about kamma beyond the present life and furthermore, rebirth? Hoping for some clarity. Thanks.
Hi Martian,

Have heard many attempts to explicate this question, and argued certain stances myself (the Milinda Pañha's account is a pretty good one, and if I remember correctly it is supported by some passages in the suttas). However, a simpler explanation might be that rebirth and anatta represent different levels of understanding, with anatta being the more profound one.

Conventionally speaking, there is an "I". What you did yesterday impacts what will happen to you tomorrow. This also applies to any number of lives. If the illusion of self can be sustained over the course of one life, it can also operate over multiple lives. By the same token, if it were impossible to speak of a self in conventional terms, then how is it that the same avatars keep cropping up here on DW from day to day?

But deep investigation of this "self" shows that it cannot actually be identified with the aggregates, and so it turns out to be a mere construct.

I think it's noteworthy that the suttas present Buddha's awakening in stages. Rebirth and kamma are described at earlier stages (first and second watch). And there is an interesting shift in the language used:

1. Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
2. Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing.
3. I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations...I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'

In the first watch, we are still talking about an "I"; in the second we have "beings", and in the third there are only "fermentations" and the process of dependent origination.

In short, we may not need to square the circle by trying to reconcile rebirth/kamma with anatta. The two represent different types or stages of knowledge.

Just my two cents' worth.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by chownah »

If one really comes to grip with the elimination of all doctrines of self then the issues of kamma and rebirth disappear. It is the fact that one has not come to grips with the elimination of all doctrines of self which creates the perceived problems of kamma and rebirth.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote:If one really comes to grip with the elimination of all doctrines of self then the issues of kamma and rebirth disappear. It is the fact that one has not come to grips with the elimination of all doctrines of self which creates the perceived problems of kamma and rebirth.
This is a truism. I'm not sure how helpful it is.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by binocular »

ground wrote:I never knows. When I ceases knowing unfolds and kamma and rebirth cease ... if there is distraction I arises again and knowing is veiled.
Awww. I don't believe you. ;)
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by manas »

martian wrote:If what we know as "I" is just a product of the continuous interaction of the 5 Aggregates and the "I" that is reborn is really a different "I" produced again, by the continuous interaction of the aggregates,
then why would the present "I" be concerned about the condition the new "I" will be born into? A typical explanation about rebirth is a flame being transferred from one lamp to another. Even in this example the flame from the first lamp have no connection with the flame that will be produced next. The brightness or dullness of the first flame with not affect the quality of the next flame. If this is the case, then is there any need to be concerned about kamma beyond the present life and furthermore, rebirth? Hoping for some clarity. Thanks.
memories.are.transferred,and.if.the.suttas.are.to.be.believed,
not.only.memories.of.the.previous.life,but.also.memories.of.lives
lived.before.that.one,going.back.through.immeasureable.time.

the.problem.is.we.just.cant.currently.remember.our.previous.lives;
aiui.they.are.stored.deep.in.the.mind,but.we.cant.currently.access.those.
memories.(doesnt.mean.theyre.not.there,though)...and.so,most.of.us.folks
identify.inordinately.with.this.body/mind.as."who.we.are",
not.able.to.see.how.mind.and.body.changed.from.life.to.life.

if.one.day.we.gain.the.sufficient.level.of.virtue.and.meditative.ability
to.be.able.to.recall.as.many.of.those.past.lives.as.we.care.to.examine,
im.guessing.we.will.be.recalling.having.done.all.sorts.of.things.over
countless.previous.lives,and.having.experienced.all.manner.of.births,
pleasures,pains,deaths,etc.

the.next.step.aiui.would.involve.perceiving.how.wholesome.actions.led
to.favourable.results,and.unwholesome.actions.to.unfavourable.results.

but.by.then,one.would.have.a.much.wider.view.of.things,and.would.see.how
it.really.does.matter.what.beings.do,because.of.the.results.of.kamma.

imagine.someone.experiencing.the.painful.life.of.an.intensively.farmed
animal...that.being.would.not.recall.the.unwholesome.actions.that.led
to.his/her.current.misery,but.thats.merely.an.issue.of.deficient.memory;
it.doesnt.change.the.law.of.causality,which.is.operating.whether
or.not.we.know.about.it.

theres.a.place.in.the.suttas.where.the.Buddha.is.quoted.as.having.said,
that.if.beings.only.knew.like.He.knew.(having.directly.seen.kamma.and
the.results.of.kamma),they.would.never.kill,lie,steal,take.intoxicants,
or.engage.in.illicit.sex.(He.then.turns.it.around.to.the.positive;if.beings
only.knew.of.the.results.of.kindness,truthfulness,generousity.etc,they
would.surely.practice.those.wholesome.things).Our.problem,as.always,
seems.to.be.ignorance!...simply,"not.knowing".

(i.hope.i.got.that.all.right,but.thats.my.current.understanding).

metta
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Why care about kamma & rebirth if there is no "I"

Post by manas »

Hi.martian

heres.a.post.and.a.link.from.another.topic,that
might.be.helpful.in.casting.light.on.this.one
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ven T's translator note for SN 22.36 wrote:Some people have said that the Buddha's teachings on the aggregates constitute his analysis of what we truly are; and that because the aggregates are impermanent and interdependent, we have an impermanent, interdependent self. This sutta, however, shows that we can be analyzed into the aggregates only if we feel obsession or attachment for them. If we don't feel these things, there's no way we can be measured, classified, or defined.
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
aiui.we.ought.to.avoid.trying.to.figure.out
"who.am.i,really?"
literally,it.seems.pointless.to.ask.this;
and.instead.put.our.energy.into.the.enquiry
what.is.stress?,and.how.can.it.be.ended?

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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