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MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta - Dhamma Wheel

MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

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MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:50 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:31 pm

This is a great Sutta.

We discussed elsewhere that this seems to be the only Sutta with the Abhidhammic mundane/trancendent right view. I'll see if I can find it...

The talks by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Brahmali (at BSWA) discuss the Abhidhamma connection in some detail.

Mike

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:33 pm

yeah the next few weeks we'll be getting into some of the more popular suttas!
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:53 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:44 am

its interesting to consider what constitutes mundane right view in the modern world. Or to put it in another way what would lead a person to practice the buddhist path (the rest of the noble eightfold path)- keep sila, strive towards more wholesome behaviour, practice mindfulness/meditation. When considering mundane right view we can see that a belief in kamma and other realms would encourage a person to keep to ethical behaviour. Belief in that there is salvation through meditation and that there are beings who do it can motivate someone to practice. Equally the belief that there is rebirth and continued rounds of samsara might motivate someone to put an end to samsara. However all this is based on a certain degree of faith. In these 'scientific' times what motivates us?
With Metta

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Sher
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:00 am


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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:21 am

Hi Sher,

I'm confused. You mean you can't follow the links in the above? They take me here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1341#p16848
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1255

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:27 am


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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby Sher » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:31 am


nathan
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby nathan » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:00 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

rowyourboat
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:28 am

Hi Nathan,
I was thinking about this today and felt there maybe other avenues into the dhamma
-experiencing suffering (the good horse sutta for example)-->hearing the dhamma (about the cessation of suffering)-->pondering and accepting (faith) because it makes sense-->practice

another path might be interest and/or initial faith-->trying some of the practices-->experiencing something positive (maybe tinged with craving)--> further practice and exploration of the dhamma

I often hear that in the west the path is wisdom (hearing an explanation of the dhamma)-->concentration (practising meditation)-->morality (with further deepening of the dhamma the practitioner becomes more morally inclined).

None of these paths necessarily require faith in kamma or rebirth. I'm not trying to go against the orthodoxy but rather trying to understand what happens in the real world- mind you, the dhamma is complex enough to accommodate all these paths and more. I am reminded of a story where the Buddha promised a relative, 'pink footed' heavenly nymphs if he came and practised! (he ended up as an arahanth). I think the end result is that as the path is an upward spiral- we do end up with right view as the practice deepens.

Having said all of this, there is a part of me which says that the degree of motivation required to practice to achieve anything solid (uttari manussa dhamma -peak/superior human states-jhana, magga phala, arahanth) is such that some degree of faith in the danger of repeated birth must be accepted at some level, otherwise if the aim is only for some blissful states and it all ends in death anyway- what is there to try so hard?

Here is an amazing sutta from DN on a debate on rebirth- you could see the lengths the monk goes to attempt to get his listners to be convinced about it.

http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Payasi_Sutta

with metta
With Metta

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby Samantha Noelle Golt » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:50 am

I think that all ways are correct. All paths lead to Rome. In the infinite knowledge of Truth the more restrictive the path followed the less the chance of success. This is statistical. A combination of all possibilities can be applied, as a systems theorist would apply them and has inmense benefits. For example, you can apply faith at one level, logic at another, feeling at yet another, hope at another, mathematics, physics, religious dogma, with masters, without them, your chosen dogma, the method is infinite but can be finite.

We are all One and so are the paths. There is no division.

Peace to you all and thank you.

Samantha

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby nathan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:38 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

nathan
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby nathan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:02 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

rowyourboat
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:54 am

thanks Nathan for sharing that.

I liked your- 'the buddha was right about what mattered most' sentence. I am planning to do a talk on 'understanding buddhism' and I think I might use that line -as long as you dont cling to it as mine or myself :D

there is something about a Truth that wise people are drawn to..to hear it verbalized..and then that 'ah yes' moment
With Metta

Karuna
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& Upekkha

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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby nathan » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:08 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

rowyourboat
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Re: MN 117. Mahācattārīsaka Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:08 pm

this sutta repeats many times that 'right view' is the forerunner. This does not mean that we need massive periods of study before we begin practice. It is a organic development with many factors interacting. we will pick up mundane right view as long as we are in touch with kalyanamittas.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
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