The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:The title of this thread is Causes for wisdom
Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma. This sutta adds to the discussion by showing that listening to the Dhamma leads to the attainment of nibbana. :D
It underlines the crucial importance of right view in the path.
Yes, very choice driven behaviors, all. And, of course, listening is followed by the choice to put into practice, by doing, what the Buddha taught, as has been carefully explained and shown to be so via the suttas, and pretty much most, if not all, of the texts you yourself have quoted.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59:
And it is not possible to say with regard to consciousness, 'Let MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.'
The literal translation of the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta is "the characteristic of not-self" and that characteristic is no control.
"The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self."
Sammohavinodani.

So listening to Dhamma can be with wisdom or without. But without listening and considering there is no possibility of deeper wisdom arising.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59:
And it is not possible to say with regard to consciousness, 'Let MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.'
The literal translation of the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta is "the characteristic of not-self" and that characteristic is no control.
And you had no control over writing your msg? There was no choice? This issue has been dealt with, above, at length. The sutta is telling us we do not have an absolute control, in that we can not will ourselves not to die or such, but it is certainly not telling us that we have no choice in how we act, and it is certainly not telling us that that choice -- kamma -- is not important to our progression on the Path.
"The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self."
Sammohavinodani.

So listening to Dhamma can be with wisdom or without. But without listening and considering there is no possibility of deeper wisdom arising.
And listening to the Dhamma is a choice and opting to act upon what is heard is a choice that will help cultivate the causes and conditions for the arising of wisdom. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote: . We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.
All we are is Dust in the Wind
:smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

Or puppets pulled and pushed by greed and delusion
Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness."
Visuddhimagga
xviii31
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: . We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.
All we are is Dust in the Wind
:smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wp4O7v5320

Or puppets pulled and pushed by greed and delusion
Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness."
Visuddhimagga
xviii31
So, there was absolutely no choice of any sort in the writing of any of the above that is under your name?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mr Man »

robertk wrote: Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.
Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:And listening to the Dhamma is a choice and opting to act upon what is heard is a choice that will help cultivate the causes and conditions for the arising of wisdom. We are a bit more than leaves blowing in the wind.
Right. It's this view of total, comprehensive passivity, like dead leaves, dust in the wind, blown here and there by "conditions" which is so very very incompatible with the path the Buddha described. When the Buddha encountered that notion, he refuted it. That has been ignored by the advocates of this view here.
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html

Does dust in the wind make kamma? No it does not.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote: Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.
Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.
contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings, but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.

Sometimes the word bhavana is used to refer to either samatha or the development of vipassana (which is actually satipatthana).

When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types.

The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."

The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote: Suttas have already been cited showing that the prime causes for wisdom are hearing and contemplation of the Dhamma.
Hi robertk by "contemplation of the Dhamma" do you mean using the brain to ponder over what has been heard/read from the sutta etc.
contemplation can be at the level of pondering the teachings,
Pondering, which is an action of choice. So, one does choose to act in such a way in relation to the teachings. While "pondering" has it place, the Buddha certainly advocated far more than a mere "pondering."
but it can go deeper.
terms like bhavana and jhaya are related.
"bhavana and jhaya ." Both of which indicate active choice in what one does.
The Dhammapada 371 :"
Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless
."
Which indicates a choice of behavior.
The atthakatha(Commentary) says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"

Now when it says 'reflecting' this includes direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment(patipatti) right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala(pativedha). The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kammaand nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen
There is no thing in what the commentary says here that would support a Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice." Quite the contrary. What is being talked about is are choices of action that cultivate the conditions of the arising of insight.

What is interesting is seeing an advocate of the Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice," showing that he has put in a tremendous amount of work in studying Buddhist texts. I wonder why.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
mogg
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mogg »

robertk wrote:
Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
Here's the problem right here. Either you heard about the Buddha's teachings late in the game, or you've got the wrong idea of how we should be practicing!

With metta
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by cooran »

Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:Thanks RobertK and pt1 for your equanimous and interesting contributions to this thread - even in the case where there has been disrespectful allusions to Khun Sujin.

I remember when Ven Dhammanando visited, and other well-known and admired bhikkhus. Are there links to any of their discussions? (sorry to go off topic :tongue: )

With metta
Chris
If you are referring to my Sujin-we-are-leaves-blowing-in-the-wind style of "practice", it is based upon robertk's own words and responses, and since robertk is advocating Sujin's position as THE way we must truly understand the Dhamma, it becomes a fair characterization of the Sujin position of "practice" as presented by robertk. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, and it does, in fact, characterize Sujin's teachings as that we are naught more than leaves blowing in the wind. If you feel that this characterization is inappropriate, then the report function is there to be used. But, then, maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

Also, we are presented with a position that is so out of the mainstream of Dhamma understanding, and it is a position that by the words of its main teacher is highly critical and dismissive of other forms of practice. And it would help if robertk were to fully, and sincerely engage what is being said here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:. There is a possibility that robertk was simply (again) being overly snide in his response here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p242662 But then robertk's snideness does not do anything to further the dialogue, , maybe it would help if robertk would actually engage the dialogue with appropriate answers rather than being snide.

.
Danda Sutta

The Stick

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Just as a stick thrown up in the air lands sometimes on its base, sometimes on its side, sometimes on its tip; in the same way, beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving
, transmigrating and wandering on, sometimes go from this world to another world, sometimes come from another world to this
.

Dust in the Wind, by Kansas, is a great song imho.

Without seeing into the nature of realities as they really are then this long long samsara will never end.
that is why soooo much viriya(energy) is needed, as i stressed in this thread.
but viriya is only helpful if it is associated with right view. so right effort is not a matter of taking some special posture, it depends on understanding what is here and now. Then the truth that has been learned about the anattaness of each dhamma will show itself more and more clearly.
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

as i said earlier in this thread:
Firstly let us be upfront and honest and admit, especially to ourselves, that delusion and conceit are almost omnipresent. Then we can take a breath and see that this Dhamma is so profound that is probable that if we feel we are having frequent moments of sati-sampajana that we are even more deluded than we first admitted.

That degree of honestly will hopefully make us feel like our head is on fire and propel us to learn what the Buddha really taught, to look for every little bit of wrong view .....and keep at it year after year, happily
.

In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They explained they were given over to the joys of wives and family and captivated by the five strands of sense pleasures. They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus:


"as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."


i feel I do. that and also encourage others to do so.
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