Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Digity
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Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Digity »

I think downloading illegal content is stealing, but what if someone gives you something that was downloaded illegally? Is that considered stealing? You didn't commit the act of downloading it, but someone else did and sent it to you. Thoughts?
plwk
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by plwk »

Is it a choice for you to refuse it?
SamKR
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by SamKR »

It sounds similar to eating meat of an animal killed by someone else.
But still I think it is better to avoid illegal stuff even if downloaded by others.
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Ben
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Ben »

Digity wrote:I think downloading illegal content is stealing, but what if someone gives you something that was downloaded illegally? Is that considered stealing? You didn't commit the act of downloading it, but someone else did and sent it to you. Thoughts?
There are laws in many countries regarding the illegality of "receiving stolen goods". Those laws can be seen as a bellwether regarding community expectation and ethics.
Like Sam said - it is in respect somewhat similar to the ethics of one who purchases or receives meat. My question to you is how proximate are you to the act of pirated download? Did you know the download was pirated? Did you encourage the person or entice in any way so as to effect the pirating? Did you speak in praise of pirating? If so, then you are in effect, breaching sila.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It is the license to use the product that needs to paid for, not the binary data that its made of.

Someone once downloaded a cracked version of a software product that I asked him to buy a license for my use. I used it for ages, without knowing anything until I tried to upgrade it. The software vendor then told me that I was using a cracked version.

It was hard to explain how a monk came to be using illegal software — :embarassed:

Fortunately, he understood and donated a license to me because I had been helpful in the product's support forums.

It is not the same as the ethics of purchasing meat. Killing animals is wrong action and earning a living by selling meat is wrong livelihood according to Buddhism, but its not illegal, so buying meat is not the same as buying stolen goods at cut-down prices, or getting illegal downloads for free.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Digity
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Digity »

Ben wrote:There are laws in many countries regarding the illegality of "receiving stolen goods". Those laws can be seen as a bellwether regarding community expectation and ethics.
Like Sam said - it is in respect somewhat similar to the ethics of one who purchases or receives meat. My question to you is how proximate are you to the act of pirated download? Did you know the download was pirated? Did you encourage the person or entice in any way so as to effect the pirating? Did you speak in praise of pirating? If so, then you are in effect, breaching sila.
kind regards,

Ben
Almost everyone I know downloads illegal stuff...I use to pirate. I don't encourage it, but I don't tell people they shouldn't do it. If I'm not sure if it was downloaded illegally does that make it okay?
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Ben
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Ben »

If you didn't know it was downloaded illegally than I wouldn't worry about it.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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SamKR
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by SamKR »

Intention is Kamma, so we should check what is our intention when we act.

Personally, sometimes when I do things which I consider unethical (but which I can't avoid) then I remember the following from Milindapanha and somewhat console myself that I am knowingly picking up hot iron ball:
The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?"

The elder replied: "Indeed, your majesty, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit."

"In that case, venerable Nagasena, would we doubly punish one who is our prince or king's chief minister who not knowing does evil?"

"What do you think, your majesty, who would get burned more, one who knowing picks up a hot iron ball, ablaze and glowing, or one who not knowing picks it up?"

"Indeed, venerable sir, he who not knowing picks it up would get burned more."

"Indeed, your majesty, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not knowing."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... iln-3-7-08
By saying this I am not encouraging to do any unethical stuff. :) Best not to even touch the hot iron ball knowingly or unknowingly.
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James the Giant
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by James the Giant »

I remember being surprised when I read about this in the Buddhist Monastic Code.... I seem to remember it's one of the rare instances where the vinaya is less strict than our modern laws.
I can't remember it clearly... I might look it out tomorrow if nobody does tonight.
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Mr Man
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Mr Man »

Hi Digity
I think you should look at why you even have the question.
:anjali:
Last edited by Mr Man on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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James the Giant
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by James the Giant »

Here it is, and the answer may be surprising to some: there is NO offense for receiving stolen goods, even knowingly.

From The Buddhist Monastic Code, about halfway down this page...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch04.html
Receiving stolen goods. Accepting a gift of goods or purchasing them very cheaply, knowing that they were stolen, would in Western criminal law result in a penalty similar to stealing itself. However, neither the Canon nor the commentaries mention this case. The closest they come is in the Vinita-vatthu, where a groundskeeper gives bhikkhus fruit from the orchard under his care, even though it was not his to give, and there was no offense for the bhikkhus. From this it can be inferred that there is no offense for receiving stolen goods, even knowingly, although a bhikkhu who does so would not be exempt from the civil law and the consequent proceedings, in the course of which the Community would probably urge him to disrobe.
Argue with Thanissaro Bhikkhu if you like.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
Strive4Karuna
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Strive4Karuna »

What do you guys think about downloading tv shows that are not available for purchase? If it was available in DVD or Blu-Ray box format then yes I would say it is unethical. But what if it was never made available for purchase?
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Ben
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Ben »

Strive4Karuna wrote:What do you guys think about downloading tv shows that are not available for purchase? If it was available in DVD or Blu-Ray box format then yes I would say it is unethical. But what if it was never made available for purchase?
It is irrelevent.
Taking that which is not freely given is a breach of sila.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Cittasanto
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Cittasanto »

Strive4Karuna wrote:What do you guys think about downloading tv shows that are not available for purchase? If it was available in DVD or Blu-Ray box format then yes I would say it is unethical. But what if it was never made available for purchase?
Maybe the "Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept" thread have the answer?
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Someone gives you something that's downloaded illegally?

Post by Buckwheat »

Strive4Karuna wrote:What do you guys think about downloading tv shows that are not available for purchase? If it was available in DVD or Blu-Ray box format then yes I would say it is unethical. But what if it was never made available for purchase?
By downloading illegally, you are stealing their right to build anticipation for the next broadcast, which lowers the price which they can charge for commercials. Even if you consider this an unfair corporate practice, it is still a minor form of theft. I'm sure the value of your download is well below the value to be kicked out of a monastery, but still serious enough that one should refrain.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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