How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:17 am

I think the Dhamma-follower and faith-follower definitions are encouraging.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:40 am

Feathers wrote:
manas wrote: . . . if/it/just/makes/one/feel/despondent
like/oh/if/this/Path/is/so/rare/to/attain
whats/the/point/in/trying
i/cant/do/it
etc
in/that/case
the/anxiety/is/unskilful . . .


I have to admit I got pretty despondent after looking over this thread.

Difficult as it may be, do you have a choice? Nope, so suck it up and get on with it my friend :)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:45 am

I feel that it is counter-productive and misleading to either say "difficult and rare" or "easy and common".

As far as I can make out, insight is a matter of deep commitment and sharpening the attention. Most folks here no doubt know the prerequisites for this and it is not something superhuman. Sure enough some are hampered by mental illness or a particularly difficult background, demanding circumstances and other inauspicious circumstances for practice. Even these can be overcome and turned around to actually serve practice.

For most of us (and I include myself in this) the greatest obstacle seems to be the commitment. How much do we want it? How seriously committed we are? How sincere is our commitment? None if this is static and fixed and can develop and grow over time, if we apply some effort and pay good attention.

Or so it seems...
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:50 am

Dan74 wrote:I feel that it is counter-productive and misleading to either say "difficult and rare" or "easy and common".

As far as I can make out, insight is a matter of deep commitment and sharpening the attention. Most folks here no doubt know the prerequisites for this and it is not something superhuman. Sure enough some are hampered by mental illness or a particularly difficult background, demanding circumstances and other inauspicious circumstances for practice. Even these can be overcome and turned around to actually serve practice.

For most of us (and I include myself in this) the greatest obstacle seems to be the commitment. How much do we want it? How seriously committed we are? How sincere is our commitment? None if this is static and fixed and can develop and grow over time, if we apply some effort and pay good attention.

Or so it seems...

I completely disagree. As Buddhists, we are interested in reality as it actually is...not how we would like it or wish it to be. The fact is, becoming a stream enterer is both difficult and rare. This is an empirical fact...glossing over it with self-deluding obfuscation is unskillful. It may be very easy for a particular person with the right kamma, but for most people, it takes many many years of dedication...and even then results are not guaranteed. Like I said above however, there is no choice in the matter, the holy life must be lived, regardless of the difficulty.

With metta
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:54 am

Perhaps believing it is to be extremely difficult and most rare is an "obfuscation" that serves to make it so difficult and rare?

Ajahn Brahm said once something to the effect of "The door out of samsara is right here. We just don't want to see it."

Of course it is not as easy as brainwashing ourselves into thinking it's easy. But setting us the impossible goal many thousands of miles ahead is not going to be productive either...

"Empirical fact" - how so?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:09 am

Dan74 wrote:Perhaps believing it is to be extremely difficult and most rare is an "obfuscation" that serves to make it so difficult and rare?

Ajahn Brahm said once something to the effect of "The door out of samsara is right here. We just don't want to see it."

Of course it is not as easy as brainwashing ourselves into thinking it's easy. But setting us the impossible goal many thousands of miles ahead is not going to be productive either...

"Empirical fact" - how so?

Ariyans are rare in the Sangha, and thats not even taking into account the number of people who disrobe. Add to that the multitude of lay practitioners striving for liberation and its pretty clear that this is both a rare and difficult 'attainment'.

Becoming an astronaut is probably quite easy for a very small number of people with the right kammic factors, however, for the vast majority of humankind, this is both a difficult and rare accomplishment. Any logical and sane person can see that is a reasonable assumption.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:40 am

mogg wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Perhaps believing it is to be extremely difficult and most rare is an "obfuscation" that serves to make it so difficult and rare?

Ajahn Brahm said once something to the effect of "The door out of samsara is right here. We just don't want to see it."

Of course it is not as easy as brainwashing ourselves into thinking it's easy. But setting us the impossible goal many thousands of miles ahead is not going to be productive either...

"Empirical fact" - how so?

Ariyans are rare in the Sangha, and thats not even taking into account the number of people who disrobe. Add to that the multitude of lay practitioners striving for liberation and its pretty clear that this is both a rare and difficult 'attainment'.

Becoming an astronaut is probably quite easy for a very small number of people with the right kammic factors, however, for the vast majority of humankind, this is both a difficult and rare accomplishment. Any logical and sane person can see that is a reasonable assumption.


Again, I am not sure what evidence you are presenting. Lay people can enter the stream, including the monastics who disrobe.

My original point was that fretting over the difficult/easy question is not helpful. Nor do I recall the Buddha describing stream-entry as "difficult". Or did he?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:48 am

Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:My original point was that fretting over the difficult/easy question is not helpful. Nor do I recall the Buddha describing stream-entry as "difficult". Or did he?

Somewhere in the sutta pitaka he says that it's rare, but then... alongside it there's a sutta that says encountering the Dhamma is rare too, so to take one sutta without taking the other sutta as context would lead to a lop-sided interpretation.

I don't recall anything off the top of my head where the Buddha explains how difficult it is for one who actually encounters his teachings, although there is a sutta somewhere (apologies I can't reference these... such things would be difficult to find even with a word-searchable version of the suttas) which says there are more stream-entrants, than there are once-returners, than there are non-returners, than there are arahants.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:58 am

Dan74 wrote:
mogg wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Perhaps believing it is to be extremely difficult and most rare is an "obfuscation" that serves to make it so difficult and rare?

Ajahn Brahm said once something to the effect of "The door out of samsara is right here. We just don't want to see it."

Of course it is not as easy as brainwashing ourselves into thinking it's easy. But setting us the impossible goal many thousands of miles ahead is not going to be productive either...

"Empirical fact" - how so?

Ariyans are rare in the Sangha, and thats not even taking into account the number of people who disrobe. Add to that the multitude of lay practitioners striving for liberation and its pretty clear that this is both a rare and difficult 'attainment'.

Becoming an astronaut is probably quite easy for a very small number of people with the right kammic factors, however, for the vast majority of humankind, this is both a difficult and rare accomplishment. Any logical and sane person can see that is a reasonable assumption.


Again, I am not sure what evidence you are presenting. Lay people can enter the stream, including the monastics who disrobe.

My original point was that fretting over the difficult/easy question is not helpful. Nor do I recall the Buddha describing stream-entry as "difficult". Or did he?

Dan its clear that you are quite wedded to your position and not reading my posts carefully. I will say it again, the attainment of sotapanna is rare within the sangha as reported to me by monks and nuns from a variety of monasteries and backgrounds in several different countries. These are the 'professionals' who have dedicated their lives to pursuing dhamma...if the attainment was easy and common, then the answer would be somewhat different. Instead of arguing with me, contemplate what I have just said.
I 100% agree with you that it is possible for lay practitioners to become stream-winners as I know someone who has. This however, is the exception rather than the norm.

The Buddha most certainly did describe the attainment as difficult. SN 6.1

"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me." The Buddha is expressing doubt that even with him teaching the dhamma, others may not understand.

Followed by:
Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached. This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dan,

Dan74 wrote:My original point was that fretting over the difficult/easy question is not helpful. Nor do I recall the Buddha describing stream-entry as "difficult". Or did he?

Somewhere in the sutta pitaka he says that it's rare, but then... alongside it there's a sutta that says encountering the Dhamma is rare too, so to take one sutta without taking the other sutta as context would lead to a lop-sided interpretation.

I don't recall anything off the top of my head where the Buddha explains how difficult it is for one who actually encounters his teachings, although there is a sutta somewhere (apologies I can't reference these... such things would be difficult to find even with a word-searchable version of the suttas) which says there are more stream-entrants, than there are once-returners, than there are non-returners, than there are arahants.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Thanks, Retro, makes sense. Rare, but perhaps not rare for those practicing...

Perhaps this conversation has an element of a personal in it - "it's not rare and no biggie because I've done it!" and "it must be so rare and difficult because I just seem to go in circles" or other such things. I guess whatever one feels about practice and attainments, it is worth examining carefully because the assumptions behind this thinking are very likely holding the practice back.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:08 am

Mogg, thanks. I don't think I am wedded to a position on this. In fact I've been trying to argue against taking a position, that taking a position is counter-productive. Perhaps you can take your own advice and read posts more carefully.

The passage you quoted again is no evidence that stream-entry is rare and difficult, I am sorry. The Dhamma being deep, hard to see and hard to realize is very true but I don't think it necessarily follows that those who sincerely strive overwhelmingly fail to do what is difficult. Especially if one does not delight in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoys attachment.

Reports of a few monks is hardly evidence unless they were major teachers who have instructed many monks and would know of their attainments. If they were, I will accept this as some evidence that it is rare.

But again, I am not of the opinion that stream-entry is easy to realize, just that it is not useful to posit that it is difficult. And that it may in fact make it more difficult that it needs to be.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:08 am

nyanasuci wrote:Being a sotāpanna is rare thing nowadays. As soon as one becomes a sotāpanna one is possessed of aparapaccayā ñānam, or 'knowledge that does not depend upon anyone else': this knowledge is also said to be 'not shared by puthujjanas', and the man who has it has (except for accelerating his progress) no further need to hear the Teaching—in a sense he is (in part) that Teaching.

Some more things can be found also at:
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=49" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the article from the Dummies.com is quite misleading. No need to comment on it since - as it seems - you are aware of it.


hence why there is no doubt anymore in the Dharma/Dhamma?
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:36 am

klqv wrote:(...)
Anyway to answer the original question, I believe that stream entry is incredibly rare in the age and I don't know how the theravada establishment treats these questions but I wouldn't believe it of anyone that wasn't deeply enmeshed in the church. FWIW I associate it with successful cultivation in zen [the ten abodes] or purifying the sense faculties in tendai [the ten faiths]. I'm somewhat open to the possibility that someone like Dogen was like an arhat but maybe just a good writer.

(...)


deeply enmeshed in the church?!

attachment to rites and rituals is one of the fetters; that a sotapana does NOT have. you are implying the opposite.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby PadmaPhala » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:04 am

khlawng wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
khlawng wrote:I know there is a general conception that has been perpatuating itself around the Buddhist community that gaining stream entry is so difficult, almost impossible, by any lay people. .
It certainly is not impossible for the laity to attain to sotapanna, but I seriously doubt that those who publicly claim it on a forum such this have actually done so.


Well tilt,

I for one hope anyone that believe they have attained sotapanna to come forward and tell us how they did. No judgement, no shame and no criticism. Sure there are the crazies. But I will go through a 100, 1000, 10,000 of them to find that 1 gem. That is my conviction. That is my effort.


Some time after learning about past lives, I* started to search more about the Dharma/Dhamma and specially the Four Stages of Nirvana.

A few years later, and after cleaning some past karma I was sure that I was born a srotapana (how common Bodhisattva vows and srotapanas were in my inmediate past life was an important part of the recollections I had of that specific life).

Right now I'm focusing in the sakadagami to anagami transition, with special care not to get addicted to jhanas (but because of that, I started to neglect the practice of meditation).

*anatta may be more about negating the concept of atman, of recognizing what is commonly called self as impermanent (anicca) than any nihilist view. pronouns used as per usual.
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby mogg » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:13 am

Dan74 wrote:Mogg, thanks. I don't think I am wedded to a position on this. In fact I've been trying to argue against taking a position, that taking a position is counter-productive. Perhaps you can take your own advice and read posts more carefully.

The passage you quoted again is no evidence that stream-entry is rare and difficult, I am sorry. The Dhamma being deep, hard to see and hard to realize is very true but I don't think it necessarily follows that those who sincerely strive overwhelmingly fail to do what is difficult. Especially if one does not delight in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoys attachment.

Reports of a few monks is hardly evidence unless they were major teachers who have instructed many monks and would know of their attainments. If they were, I will accept this as some evidence that it is rare.

But again, I am not of the opinion that stream-entry is easy to realize, just that it is not useful to posit that it is difficult. And that it may in fact make it more difficult that it needs to be.

Dan, Ajahn Brahm said in a talk I attended in Malaysia that whilst the vinaya prohibited him from giving specifics, he could say that there are monks and nuns getting enlightened in the contemporary Sangha. So it is being done.

However, like I said previously, I ask this question a lot and I have passed on the consistent answer that I have received from monks and nuns (some prominent teachers, others low-key). This follows my own experience of walking the path, as for me, nothing has come easily since I embarked on this journey. This is fairly common from discussions with other practitioners that I have come across (with a few exceptions...like a friend of mine who got into jhana on her first retreat). For most of us, its not easy. Like I said previously though, I would rather know the truth of the matter and face up to it like a man than delude myself with all sorts of 'puppy dogs and ice-cream' fluff like you see being peddled in other religions.

Know it's tough, know that you have no choice, and get on with it.

(If it turns out to be easy for you then come track me down and help me out :smile: )
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby manas » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:22 am

Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
(words/bolded/for/emphasis)


Im/not/being/naive/or/overly/optimistic
as/far/as/i/know
but/I/sense/or/intuit
that/a/lot/depends
on/how/much/we/are/willing/to/strive
exert/ourselves
give/up/sensual/pleasures
meditate/many/hours/per/day/and/night
and/so/on
all/those/things
that/the/suttas/say/over/and/over
we/ought/to/do
but/that/are/so/challenging
to/really/throw/all/our/effort/into

i/tend/to/agree/with/the/notion
that/if/we/really/wanted/liberation
its/all/laid/out/pretty/well
but/not/many/people
really/go/for/it
i/know/ive/hesitated/also
not/given/100%/day/in/day/out
so/im/not/judging

metta
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:17 am

Greetings,

retrofuturist wrote:I don't recall anything off the top of my head where the Buddha explains how difficult it is for one who actually encounters his teachings

Actually, I just came across this from AN 1.342...

"Those beings are few who understand the meaning of the Dhamma and then practice in accordance with the Dhamma; more numerous are those who not understand the meaning of the Dhamma and do not practice in accordance with the Dhamma".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:58 pm

Vincenzi wrote:
khlawng wrote:I for one hope anyone that believe they have attained sotapanna to come forward and tell us how they did. No judgement, no shame and no criticism. Sure there are the crazies. But I will go through a 100, 1000, 10,000 of them to find that 1 gem. That is my conviction. That is my effort.


Some time after learning about past lives, I* started to search more about the Dharma/Dhamma and specially the Four Stages of Nirvana.

A few years later, and after cleaning some past karma I was sure that I was born a srotapana (how common Bodhisattva vows and srotapanas were in my inmediate past life was an important part of the recollections I had of that specific life).

Right now I'm focusing in the sakadagami to anagami transition, with special care not to get addicted to jhanas (but because of that, I started to neglect the practice of meditation).

*anatta may be more about negating the concept of atman, of recognizing what is commonly called self as impermanent (anicca) than any nihilist view. pronouns used as per usual.

So what do you recollect about "how to did it"? As that was the request made by the poster you responded to.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby equilibrium » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:44 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I don't recall anything off the top of my head where the Buddha explains how difficult it is for one who actually encounters his teachings

Actually, I just came across this from AN 1.342...
"Those beings are few who understand the meaning of the Dhamma and then practice in accordance with the Dhamma; more numerous are those who not understand the meaning of the Dhamma and do not practice in accordance with the Dhamma".


"Of two people who, having listened to the Dhamma, remember it — one who explores the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't explore the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does explore the meaning of the Dhamma he has remembered is, for that reason, to be praised.

"Of two people who explore the meaning of the Dhamma they have remembered — one who practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning, and one who doesn't — the one who doesn't practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning, is to be criticized for that reason, the one who does practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning is, for that reason, to be praised.

"Of two people who practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, having a sense of Dhamma, having a sense of meaning — one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others, and one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others — the one who practices for his own benefit but not that of others is to be criticized for that reason, the one who practices for both his own benefit and that of others is, for that reason, to be praised.

(source: AN 7.64) + (Into the Stream: A Study Guide on the First Stage of Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Postby Feathers » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:13 pm

mogg wrote:
Feathers wrote:
manas wrote: . . . if/it/just/makes/one/feel/despondent
like/oh/if/this/Path/is/so/rare/to/attain
whats/the/point/in/trying
i/cant/do/it
etc
in/that/case
the/anxiety/is/unskilful . . .


I have to admit I got pretty despondent after looking over this thread.

Difficult as it may be, do you have a choice? Nope, so suck it up and get on with it my friend :)


Or I can decide the game isn't worth the candle - after all, even if (big if for me) rebirth is all true, memory carrying over seems so rare, that I won't be suffering. So I do as much as benefits me in this life, and then either this life is all there ever was (win) or I get reborn and continue for many more lives . . . but that would have happened anyway, as apparently even working your butt off for decades doesn't get you free of that.

If real progress, stream-entry at least, is not a realistic possibility, I simply don't see the motivation to do more than meditate a bit (for a happier mind) and live a moral life (because it's the right thing to do, and to hedge your bets on reincarnation).

This one life is exhausting - I used to wish there was an afterlife, now I am leaning towards hoping this one life is all there is. The idea of 7 more is already too much to face. To expend effort and precious energy on something that would still almost certainly leave me facing far more than 7 . . .

Looking at life here and now is like standing at the bottom of a hill with two broken legs, knowing I have to somehow climb that hill. Buddhism seems to chuck in an entire mountain range.

And yes, I know I'm on a Buddhist forum, and . . . I do believe there's something to Buddhism. If I didn't, if I was neutral or opposed to it, I wouldn't be here.
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