Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

mogg wrote:The austere photo of Ajahn Mun does not convey the Buddhas message as presented in the Nikayas. Allow me to supply some alternatives:
Do you have any photos of Ajahn Chah after he suffered a stroke?
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mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
mogg wrote:The austere photo of Ajahn Mun does not convey the Buddhas message as presented in the Nikayas. Allow me to supply some alternatives:
Do you have any photos of Ajahn Chah after he suffered a stroke?
I do in fact but that wouldn't be particularly relevant to the point I was making. The OP was using a grim photo to somewhow show that being austere and emaciated was the Buddha's teaching. My photos of Ajahn Chah were showing the correct way to approach the dhamma. The Buddha never recommended having a stroke as a core requisite of the eightfold path hence its omission in this particular discussion.

I will grant (as an aside) that the post stroke photos are powerful teaching aids too. I see them more as a teaching of the tilakkhana and a propellent for injecting energy into the path.
Coyote
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by Coyote »

I don't think Ajahn Mun is austere and emaciated. He is rather "dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — so that in no long time he would reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life" As it says in many places in the first 4 nikayas.

Image
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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manas
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by manas »

mogg wrote: Image

Notice the smiling happy countenance and 'pleasantly plump' figure.

With metta.
Yes/there/are/those/photos/i/love/them/too
but/he/wasnt/always/smiling/sweetly

Image

ajahn/chah/could/look/strict/too
i/read/where/he/said
that/he/pushed/himself/to/the/limits
in/his/quest/for/enlightenment
and/that/enlightenment/lay
"on/the/near/side/of/death":
that/one/has/to/virtually/be/prepared/to/give/up/ones/life
for/the/truth
(or/words/to/the/effect)

ajahn/chah/also/practiced/really/strongly/in/his/time
and/pushed/himself/quite/hard/afaik

metta/ :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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manas
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by manas »

we/can/read/the.words/of/sutta,/but
Ajahn/Mun/lived/the/words/of/this/sutta:
"Calamity, tumor, misfortune,
disease, an arrow, a danger for me."
Seeing this danger in sensual strands,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

Cold & heat, hunger & thirst,
wind & sun, horseflies & snakes:
enduring all these, without exception,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

As a great white elephant,
with massive shoulders,
renouncing his herd,
lives in the wilds wherever he wants,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

Coyote wrote:I don't think Ajahn Mun is austere and emaciated. He is rather "dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — so that in no long time he would reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life" As it says in many places in the first 4 nikayas.

Image
This is actually my favourite picture of Ajahn Chah. I have it framed above my fridge.
mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

manas wrote:we/can/read/the.words/of/sutta,/but
Ajahn/Mun/lived/the/words/of/this/sutta:
"Calamity, tumor, misfortune,
disease, an arrow, a danger for me."
Seeing this danger in sensual strands,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

Cold & heat, hunger & thirst,
wind & sun, horseflies & snakes:
enduring all these, without exception,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

As a great white elephant,
with massive shoulders,
renouncing his herd,
lives in the wilds wherever he wants,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
No disagreement from me.

P.S I clearly was never postulating that Ajahn Chah was walking around with a perpetual grin on his face, merely that being sombre faced and serious isn't a necessary part of the path. I'm currently in Thailand, and over here they love to place pictures of monks on the roadside, and it seems like a competition to see which Ajahn can look the most serious and grumpy. All the accomplished meditators that I know are happy people with a ready smile so I think it sends the wrong message to people.

MIDDLE WAY
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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by kirk5a »

mogg wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: Not in the first 4 Nikayas, but it is in the Sutta Pitaka; the Khuddaka Nikaya > Dhammapada, verse 395.
The message is not consistent with the first four nikayas which take precedent.
It is in fact consistent with the ascetic practices (dhutanga) mentioned in AN 5:181-190.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

kirk5a wrote:
mogg wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: Not in the first 4 Nikayas, but it is in the Sutta Pitaka; the Khuddaka Nikaya > Dhammapada, verse 395.
The message is not consistent with the first four nikayas which take precedent.
It is in fact consistent with the ascetic practices (dhutanga) mentioned in AN 5:181-190.
There is nothing in those suttas that supports your claim. If you disagree please produce the paragraph(s) in question.

With metta
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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by kirk5a »

AN 1:191 wrote: Bhikkhus, the foremost of my bhikkhu disciples among those who expound the ascetic practices is Mahākassapa."
AN 5:181-190 wrote: Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of forest dwellers... One who becomes a forest dweller for the sake of fewness of desires, for the sake of contentment, for the sake of eliminating [defilements], for the sake of solitude, for the sake of simplicity, is the foremost, the best, the preeminent, the supreme, and the finest of these five kinds of forest dwellers... there are these five kinds of wearers of rag-robes... these five who dwell at the foot of a tree... these five who dwell in a charnel ground... these five who dwell in the open air... these five who observe the sitter's practice... these five who observe the any-bed-user's practice... these five who observe the one-session practice... these five who observe the later-food-refuser's practice... these five who observe the practice of eating only food in the almsbowl.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

kirk5a wrote:
AN 1:191 wrote: Bhikkhus, the foremost of my bhikkhu disciples among those who expound the ascetic practices is Mahākassapa."
AN 5:181-190 wrote: Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of forest dwellers... One who becomes a forest dweller for the sake of fewness of desires, for the sake of contentment, for the sake of eliminating [defilements], for the sake of solitude, for the sake of simplicity, is the foremost, the best, the preeminent, the supreme, and the finest of these five kinds of forest dwellers... there are these five kinds of wearers of rag-robes... these five who dwell at the foot of a tree... these five who dwell in a charnel ground... these five who dwell in the open air... these five who observe the sitter's practice... these five who observe the any-bed-user's practice... these five who observe the one-session practice... these five who observe the later-food-refuser's practice... these five who observe the practice of eating only food in the almsbowl.
There is nothing in there which advocates emaciation kirk which is the entirety of this discussion. What you have listed is run of the mill forest tradition practice.

Have you ever stayed at a forest monastery?
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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by kirk5a »

mogg wrote: There is nothing in there which advocates emaciation kirk which is the entirety of this discussion. What you have listed is run of the mill forest tradition practice.

Have you ever stayed at a forest monastery?
No I have not stayed at a forest monastery. And staying at a monastery is not what is being described by the ascetic practices. I said those passages from the Angutta Nikaya are consistent with Dhp 395, which does not "advocate emaciation." Having veins showing is a condition of minimal body fat, not necessarily "emaciation" which implies malnutrition. Ajahn Mun lived to the age of 79, so he was not starving.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by kirk5a »

"emaciation"

pre-Middle Path, later renounced by the Buddha
52. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.'[19] They say: 'Let us live on kola-fruits,' and they eat kola-fruits, they eat kola-fruit powder, they drink kola-fruit water, and they make many kinds of kola-fruit concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single kola-fruit a day. Sariputta, you may think that the kola-fruit was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the kola-fruit was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single kola-fruit a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems. Because of eating so little my backside became like a camel's hoof. Because of eating so little the projections on my spine stood forth like corded beads. Because of eating so little my ribs jutted out as gaunt as the crazy rafters of an old roofless barn. Because of eating so little the gleam of my eyes sank far down in their sockets, looking like a gleam of water which has sunk far down in a deep well. Because of eating so little my scalp shrivelled and withered as a green bitter gourd shrivels and withers in the wind and sun. Because of eating so little my belly skin adhered to my backbone; thus if I touched my belly skin I encountered my backbone, and if I touched my backbone I encountered my belly skin. Because of eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el390.html

Image
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
mogg
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by mogg »

kirk5a wrote:
mogg wrote: There is nothing in there which advocates emaciation kirk which is the entirety of this discussion. What you have listed is run of the mill forest tradition practice.

Have you ever stayed at a forest monastery?
No I have not stayed at a forest monastery. And staying at a monastery is not what is being described by the ascetic practices.
Please elaborate.
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kirk5a
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Re: Moaning & Groaning and the Path & Fruit

Post by kirk5a »

What's to elaborate? It describes those who dwell in the forest, not in a monastery. As Ajahn Mun did for much of his life.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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