Brahma viharas -- why?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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FatDaddy
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by FatDaddy »

polarbuddha101 wrote:I think the brahma viharas are probably necessary to cultivate sila that goes beyond and doesn't rely on precepts. The attitude that the brahma viharas cultivate is also the attitude we need to engage wisely and kindly with the world. So the brahma viharas are necessary to follow the path if you ask me.

:anjali:
:goodpost:
Happy, at rest,
may all beings be happy at heart.
Whatever beings there may be,
weak or strong, without exception,
long, large,
middling, short,
subtle, blatant,
seen & unseen,
near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart.

Let no one deceive another
or despise anyone anywhere,
or through anger or irritation
wish for another to suffer.
— Sn 1.8
binocular
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

kirk5a wrote:
binocular wrote: I've seen neo-Buddhists who have the view that the brahmaviharas are not enough - in the sense that anger, hatred, contempt are wholesome attitudes that must also be practiced if one is to attain enlightenment.
Where on earth have you seen that view?
Like I said, from some neo-Buddhists, not big-style teachers or anything of that sort.
I was caught completely off-guard, though, I did not expect that I would ever encounter a person who would make a point of calling themselves a Buddhist, claiming to know exactly what the Buddha knew, often going directly against the Pali Canon, claiming my references to the Pali Canon are dismissable. And that basically, they are the only real Buddhists, and everyone else who isn't like them, the actual monks and the tradition, are just plain wrong. And all this with so much hatred! I have felt physically assaulted just from their words, the energy in them was poisonous.

I mean - the experience of meeting such a person - that is scary, one of the scariest things I have ever experienced.
How can someone talk so much about the Buddha - and yet have attitudes and behave in ways that have little or nothing to do with Buddhism as I know it.
I don't know, and I was not prepared for this kind of challenge.

Reading about people who claim to be enlightened is one thing. Actually having to deal with them is something quite different.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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manas
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by manas »

binocular wrote: How can someone talk so much about the Buddha - and yet have attitudes and behave in ways that have little or nothing to do with Buddhism as I know it.
I don't know, and I was not prepared for this kind of challenge.

Reading about people who claim to be enlightened is one thing. Actually having to deal with them is something quite different.
Good that you survived to tell the tale. :) And remember that word 'claim'. I could claim I was the Heir to the throne of England but it wouldn't make it true. :lol: People can outlandishly claim quite a few things. I'm glad you had the discernment to not lose your faith over this.

Metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

manas wrote:I'm glad you had the discernment to not lose your faith over this.
Actually, I'm not so sure about that. It rattled me up quite badly.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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manas
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by manas »

binocular wrote:
manas wrote:I'm glad you had the discernment to not lose your faith over this.
Actually, I'm not so sure about that. It rattled me up quite badly.
I'm sorry that I did not pick that up, my apologies. :embarassed: I forgot how painful it can be when someone disappoints us in that way. I actually can relate, although in my case the practitioner was not claiming any higher level or attainment, but still I can recall how my faith got shaken a bit by a negative experience(s) with that person, who I was looking up to at the time. So yes it can be quite painful.

Rest assured, there are some really amazing Buddhists around, who really do walk the talk. One thing I have noticed about the ones I've met who made the deepest impression on me, was their humility. They have the aura of someone who would be quite content to remain totally unnoticed in a room. They don't seem to want attention. In my experience, this humility is a much surer sign of true spiritual advancement (though of course not the only one) than any 'claim of enlightenment'.

Metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Dan74
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by Dan74 »

binocular wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
binocular wrote: I've seen neo-Buddhists who have the view that the brahmaviharas are not enough - in the sense that anger, hatred, contempt are wholesome attitudes that must also be practiced if one is to attain enlightenment.
Where on earth have you seen that view?
Like I said, from some neo-Buddhists, not big-style teachers or anything of that sort.
I was caught completely off-guard, though, I did not expect that I would ever encounter a person who would make a point of calling themselves a Buddhist, claiming to know exactly what the Buddha knew, often going directly against the Pali Canon, claiming my references to the Pali Canon are dismissable. And that basically, they are the only real Buddhists, and everyone else who isn't like them, the actual monks and the tradition, are just plain wrong. And all this with so much hatred! I have felt physically assaulted just from their words, the energy in them was poisonous.

I mean - the experience of meeting such a person - that is scary, one of the scariest things I have ever experienced.
How can someone talk so much about the Buddha - and yet have attitudes and behave in ways that have little or nothing to do with Buddhism as I know it.
I don't know, and I was not prepared for this kind of challenge.

Reading about people who claim to be enlightened is one thing. Actually having to deal with them is something quite different.
I think we have to be realistic and not take exposure to the Dhamma as some sort of a panacea for lifetimes of delusion and bad habits.

So some people may have had no exposure to the Dhamma and yet be gentle, kind and wise. Others may have spent decades in temples and still behave in the way you've described. Even with an excellent teacher and exposure to true teachings, so much still depends on one's kamma. So I would not blame the teachings, because someone is not yet able to integrate them into their life. But we also may not know what that person was like before they encountered the Dhamma. Might've been much worse!
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SarathW
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand Brahma Viharas is that they are second nature to Arahants.
By practicing Brahma Viharas we (Puthujhana) are mimicking their behaviour and get an indirect experience with how arahants live their lives.
Hence this will help us to fast track the progress of the path.
I have witnessed that Brahma Viharas are practiced by non-Buddhist as well.
This will greatly benefit the whole world including human, animal, Deva etc .
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

Dan74 wrote:So some people may have had no exposure to the Dhamma and yet be gentle, kind and wise. Others may have spent decades in temples and still behave in the way you've described. Even with an excellent teacher and exposure to true teachings, so much still depends on one's kamma. So I would not blame the teachings, because someone is not yet able to integrate them into their life. But we also may not know what that person was like before they encountered the Dhamma. Might've been much worse!
I'm not blaming the teachings, and to get back to the OP -
Looking at the kind of people who tend to get ahead in the world, and also at some visible proponents of Buddhism (whatever they mean by that), it appears that a good dose of ill will is good and necessary.
I think that at some point, a person trying to practice the brahmaviharas will have to resolve the issue that the brahmaviharas don't seem enough - don't seem enough due to doctrinal considerations, practical considerations, and real-world considerations.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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kirk5a
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by kirk5a »

binocular wrote:
I'm not blaming the teachings, and to get back to the OP -
Looking at the kind of people who tend to get ahead in the world, and also at some visible proponents of Buddhism (whatever they mean by that), it appears that a good dose of ill will is good and necessary.
It doesn't appear that way to me. I probably have some degree of idealistic tendencies, but the people I observe "getting ahead" by means of ill will, aren't actually "getting ahead" by any definition that I would accept. I see success in life coming to those who have positive qualities in line with what is expressed by the Brahma viharas. Those are the sort of people that everyone wants to be associated with, be around, assist and so on.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by retrofuturist »

Well said, Kirk.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by BlackBird »

binocular wrote:it appears that a good dose of ill will is good and necessary.
Hi Binocular, what do you mean?

Have you read the simile of the saw?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
binocular
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

kirk5a wrote:
binocular wrote:
I'm not blaming the teachings, and to get back to the OP -
Looking at the kind of people who tend to get ahead in the world, and also at some visible proponents of Buddhism (whatever they mean by that), it appears that a good dose of ill will is good and necessary.
It doesn't appear that way to me. I probably have some degree of idealistic tendencies, but the people I observe "getting ahead" by means of ill will, aren't actually "getting ahead" by any definition that I would accept. I see success in life coming to those who have positive qualities in line with what is expressed by the Brahma viharas. Those are the sort of people that everyone wants to be associated with, be around, assist and so on.
There are successful people who are like Bill Gates, for example. And then there are successful people who are like -- well, not to mention any names. You probably know what kind of successful people I mean - the kind of aggressive, ruthless business person. And ultimately, it appears it is this latter who prevail.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

BlackBird wrote:Have you read the simile of the saw?
In what way do you think it relates to this topic?

When you lose your job because of mobbing in the work place, idealism isn't going to pay your bills nor will it get you a new job.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by PadmaPhala »

binocular wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
binocular wrote: I've seen neo-Buddhists who have the view that the brahmaviharas are not enough - in the sense that anger, hatred, contempt are wholesome attitudes that must also be practiced if one is to attain enlightenment.
Where on earth have you seen that view?
Like I said, from some neo-Buddhists, not big-style teachers or anything of that sort.
I was caught completely off-guard, though, I did not expect that I would ever encounter a person who would make a point of calling themselves a Buddhist, claiming to know exactly what the Buddha knew, often going directly against the Pali Canon, claiming my references to the Pali Canon are dismissable. And that basically, they are the only real Buddhists, and everyone else who isn't like them, the actual monks and the tradition, are just plain wrong. And all this with so much hatred! I have felt physically assaulted just from their words, the energy in them was poisonous.

I mean - the experience of meeting such a person - that is scary, one of the scariest things I have ever experienced.
How can someone talk so much about the Buddha - and yet have attitudes and behave in ways that have little or nothing to do with Buddhism as I know it.
I don't know, and I was not prepared for this kind of challenge.

Reading about people who claim to be enlightened is one thing. Actually having to deal with them is something quite different.
Was this something you heard by followers of "kentucky fried buddhism"?
binocular
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Re: Brahma viharas -- why?

Post by binocular »

Vincenzi wrote:Was this something you heard by followers of "kentucky fried buddhism"?
I don't know, I didn't have the presence of mind to ask much of them.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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