MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
puppha
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:56 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: London, UK

MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby puppha » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:46 pm

MN27: Cula-hatthipadopama Sutta: The Shorter Elephant Footprint Simile

In this discourse, the Buddha tells a Brahmin the different stages of a disciple culminating in arahantship. At each stage, the Buddha says
Buddha wrote:disciple of the noble ones would not yet come to the conclusion, 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'


Once the disciple attain arahantship, only then the Buddha says
Buddha wrote:it is here that a disciple of the noble ones has come to conclusion: 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'


That seems to contradict that a sotapanna attain unshakeable faith in the Buddha/Dhamma/Sangha, because in that case it looks like the disciple attain that only when he is an arahant...

Is there anything I don't understand correctly there?
Many thanks for your comments!

With Metta

User avatar
polarbuddha101
Posts: 818
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California

Re: MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby polarbuddha101 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:07 pm

That sutta is just following the often occurring process of the gradual training depicted in the discourses and so it doesn't address the lower levels of awakening, but given that a stream enterer has seen the 4 noble truths in depth to some extent it makes sense that they would no longer have any doubt about the Teacher, the Teachings, or those who have practiced the teaching well.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby reflection » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:47 pm

See also the footnotes. "The sentence stating that the stream-enterer has come to a conclusion without coming to conclusion is a play on words."

Meaning, (s)he came to the conclusion about enlightenment of the Buddha, but is not fully enlightened (concluded).

santa100
Posts: 1603
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby santa100 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:30 pm

Alternative translation from Ven. Bodhi:
This too, brahmin, is called a footprint of the Tathāgata, something scraped by the Tathāgata, something marked by the Tathāgata, but a noble disciple still has not yet come to the conclusion: ‘The Blessed One is fully enlightened, the Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One, the Sangha is practising the good way.’ Rather, he is in the process of coming to this conclusionp.

And footnote:
This, according to MA, shows the moment of the path, and since at this point the noble disciple has still not completed his task, he has not yet come to a conclusion (na tveva niṭṭ̣haṁ gato hoti) about the Triple Gem; rather, he is in the process of coming to a conclusion (nị̣hȧ gacchati). The sutta employs a pun on the meaning of the expression “coming to a conclusion” that is as viable in English as in Pali

User avatar
puppha
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:56 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: London, UK

Re: MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby puppha » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:21 am

Thank you for your comments. Indeed, it looks more like a word play than a strict doctrinal point. In addition, the Buddha was speaking to a Brahmin who was not a lay-follower yet, so the discourse is probably not to be taken as exact doctrinal points.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu does mention in the note the inconsistency of the particular term in use here, ie. "nittha".

Many thanks for your comments!

With Metta

:namaste:

Ananda26
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: MN27: Only arahant has full confidence in tisarana?

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:56 pm

puppha wrote:MN27: Cula-hatthipadopama Sutta: The Shorter Elephant Footprint Simile

In this discourse, the Buddha tells a Brahmin the different stages of a disciple culminating in arahantship. At each stage, the Buddha says
Buddha wrote:disciple of the noble ones would not yet come to the conclusion, 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'


Once the disciple attain arahantship, only then the Buddha says
Buddha wrote:it is here that a disciple of the noble ones has come to conclusion: 'The Blessed One is rightly self-awakened; the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One; the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples has practiced rightly.'


That seems to contradict that a sotapanna attain unshakeable faith in the Buddha/Dhamma/Sangha, because in that case it looks like the disciple attain that only when he is an arahant...

Is there anything I don't understand correctly there?
Many thanks for your comments!

With Metta


Unshakealbe confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha and possesing those virtues which are dear to the Noble which are unbroken, untorn, unblemished are Factors for gaining Stream Entry.

By the time of the attainment of Arahantship knowledge of Buddha's rightness has also arisen.


Return to “Classical Theravāda”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jabalí and 4 guests