temples and bugs/pests

[alan...]

so i used to go to a temple where there were birds nests in the area where the walking meditation was done under the roof eaves. the monks just placed buckets of sand under them too catch the droppings and let them be. naturally, buddhists aren't supposed to hurt any life.

okay, then there's a huge wasps nest in the ceiling of a pavilion, again, it just grows and grows for the same reason. perfectly in line with the rules.

but this same temple mows around a mile of grass. this undoubtedly kills hundreds of thousands of bugs. as well as frogs, snakes, mice and other creatures. how in the world does this make sense?

this is leading up to the real question: how can temples possibly operate without EVER taking measures against pests?

for example if they didn't cut the grass they would have horrid infestations of numerous bugs, reptiles and rodents! if wasps made nests inside the buildings they would have to abandon them. if termites ate the floors... and so on.

[marc108]

how in the world does this make sense?

intention!


i wonder about that stuff myself, re: how to deal with dangerous pests. it's been extremely challenging for me to grow my garden without the use of pesticides or any other bug-killing agents. i've heard that a lot of monasteries actually do fumigate and control for pests. i've chosen to get what i can get from my garden without harming the bugs because i dont NEED the food to survive, but if it was my only source of food... who can say. we do the best we can with what we are given.

i think the precepts are more like training rules than absolute rules of morality. it wouldnt be wise to say, let wasps take over a building where they may kill someone or make the building unusable. better to have people meditating in the sala than a bunch of wasps.

[barcsimalsi]

this is leading up to the real question: how can temples possibly operate without EVER taking measures against pests?
for example if they didn't cut the grass they would have horrid infestations of numerous bugs, reptiles and rodents! if wasps made nests inside the buildings they would have to abandon them. if termites ate the floors... and so on.

This is when the role of anagarika comes into hand.

[alan...]

this is leading up to the real question: how can temples possibly operate without EVER taking measures against pests?
for example if they didn't cut the grass they would have horrid infestations of numerous bugs, reptiles and rodents! if wasps made nests inside the buildings they would have to abandon them. if termites ate the floors... and so on.

This is when the role of anagarika comes into hand.

weird. so one could take this position and end up breaking precepts because of it? in order to become a monk you spend a year or so breaking the no killing precept if they ask you to kill pests? seems like running backwards towards the goal.

[alan...]

how in the world does this make sense?

intention!


i wonder about that stuff myself, re: how to deal with dangerous pests. it's been extremely challenging for me to grow my garden without the use of pesticides or any other bug-killing agents. i've heard that a lot of monasteries actually do fumigate and control for pests. i've chosen to get what i can get from my garden without harming the bugs because i dont NEED the food to survive, but if it was my only source of food... who can say. we do the best we can with what we are given.

i think the precepts are more like training rules than absolute rules of morality. it wouldnt be wise to say, let wasps take over a building where they may kill someone or make the building unusable. better to have people meditating in the sala than a bunch of wasps.

okay that makes sense. so if it gets out of hand they may have to just deal with it. my garden died because of bugs, they ate literally every plant. i was unaware that there are bug repellants that do not kill. this i will use the next time i garden.

[barcsimalsi]

this is leading up to the real question: how can temples possibly operate without EVER taking measures against pests?
for example if they didn't cut the grass they would have horrid infestations of numerous bugs, reptiles and rodents! if wasps made nests inside the buildings they would have to abandon them. if termites ate the floors... and so on.

This is when the role of anagarika comes into hand.

weird. so one could take this position and end up breaking precepts because of it? in order to become a monk you spend a year or so breaking the no killing precept if they ask you to kill pests? seems like running backwards towards the goal.

Due to the awful law of samsara, it is impossible please everyone at the same time. Between the welfare of bugs and the welfare of monks, between preserving the seeds of the nature and preserving the teaching of the buddha, we just have to pick one.

[alan...]

Due to the awful law of samsara, it is impossible please everyone at the same time. Between the welfare of bugs and the welfare of monks, between preserving the seeds of the nature and preserving the teaching of the buddha, we just have to pick one.

seems like picking the option of hiring an exterminator who does not care for or want to follow precepts to deal with pests would be more appropriate than making a person who is aspiring to become a buddhist monk do it. that's all i'm saying.

[SarathW]

Hi Marc
I grow vegis in my garden and never use pestisides. Crop rotation and multi crops is the best for a home garden I think.
I am not solely depend on my garden though.

[barcsimalsi]

After reading the explanation of monastic code, i think this issue is not a big deal anymore.

Intention, in the Vibhaṅga, is described as "having willed, having made the decision knowingly and consciously" — the same phrase used to define intention under Pr 3. The Commentary to this rule refers back to the Commentary to that rule, where having willed means having willed, having planned, with a murderous intention. Having made the decision means "having summoned up a reckless mind-state, 'crushing' through the power of an attack." Knowingly means knowing that, "This is a living being." Consciously means being aware that one's action is depriving the animal of life.

All of this indicates that this factor is fulfilled only when one acts on a clear and consciously made decision to deprive the animal of life. Thus, for example, if one is sweeping a walk, trying carefully not to kill any insects, and yet some ants happen to die, one does not commit an offense even if one knew that there was the possibility that some might die, because one's purpose in acting was not to cause their death.

Although we knew breaking the wasp nest will probably kill the larvae inside but our purpose is to move them hence it isn't killing. Yet if this theory applies to human terrorists hiding in a house it will need a different approach.
Also, the adult wasps will be gone soon when their nest is cleared. Don't have to kill them just make sure the handler is armored like this:

[alan...]

oh okay thanks that clears it up