Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

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alan...
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by alan... »

this is a HUGE debate. the suttas teach that it is the only way... kind of. the buddha said one must meditate. but there are suttas where he says the methods within can get one to nibbana and makes no mention of meditation, examples are satipatthana sutta (non-jhana meditation anyway) and metta sutta among others. some say this just means he was speaking on them in addition to the prerequisites of meditation and other things not mentioned in the specific suttas in question while assuming the listeners knew about these things already, others say it means one can use these methods alone.

personally i see that the eightfold path includes step eight: samma ditthi which is translated usually as "right concentration" if you look into suttas on "right concentration" it's usually defined as "jhana" meditation. so for my money, yes one must meditate.

some would say that one must master meditation and this is the ONLY way to reach nibbana, go through the 8 jhanas, and then jhana 9 is nibbana, you win, good job. nibbana is at the top of the meditation ladder and no where else.

but there is hope for people who do not fully master meditation in the suttas mentioned above and others, even if you believe that jhana (minimum of at least the first jhana according to the suttas) is a requirement to reach nibbana. this i like since i'm no expert and have no teacher. one could practice jhana the best they can, never reach the super high stages but still reach nibbana either then and there or while doing metta or satipatthana or another practice. so you still fulfill the eighth step in the path, but you reach nibbana using the first jhana or another method and not necessarily while sitting on the cushion after mastering all stages of jhana.

so my opinion is that you must meditate as a prerequisite to nibbana, but you don't have to master all the way to the 9th jhana or anything to reach it. the first jhana is relatively (relative to the 9th jhana anyhow) easy to attain. finding out what "attaining" it really is as far as defining it amongst the myriad definitions and views is another story...

but then again, what do i know? check the suttas for yourself and see what they say to you personally once you have all the facts and differing opinions and you understand the reasoning behind the different ideas. dig deep! for all you know i'm just a gorilla who learned to type! or just a stack of cups, heck anyone could be inanimate on here and just fooling people into thinking they're people Image, hence the importance of checking the suttas, they have all the answers.
taintless
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by taintless »

Pretty much every answer here is good.

The way to Awakening is the Noble Eightfold Path.

In modern terms:

1) Correct perspective.
2) Correct intention.
3) Clean up your speech.
4) Clean up your actions.
5) Clean up your livelihood.
6) Exert effort to both maintain good qualities and give rise to new ones, while expelling bad qualities and making sure no new bad ones arise.
7) Be vigilant, constant and mindful.
8) Concentrate.
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reflection
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by reflection »

Hi,

All answers are nice, but something that I dare to add. Please forgive me for being bald, but it may help you.

If you don't like your meditation and it is not working, you are probably not doing it right, or your basis is insufficient. The Buddha said the path is happy in the beginning, middle and end. And he said the results of meditation are a 'pleasant abiding'. So if this is not happening, it may indicate you are not well enough established on the path. Perhaps your morality is lacking, or your sense restraint needs work. It could be those things that hold back your meditation. Or perhaps your meditation instructions were not correct? I can only guess here. But the path itself is made to lessening our suffering, so increasing our happiness, especially in meditation.

Sure, it's not easy all the time. Sometimes it is a struggle. But even then meditation can provide more peace and happiness. If you compare the beginning of the sitting with the end and you practiced correctly, no matter how much of a struggle it was, almost all of the time, you'll find peace will have increased.

Also, yes, in a sense the path is a waste of time, because you'll get nothing out of it. It's about letting go without expecting something in return. Letting go those burdens of having to achieve anything or having to become anything. This is how meditation is totally unlike anything else. Not comparable to other sorts of concentration. The translation 'concentration' is one I am not too fond of, anyway.

With metta,
Reflection
Sadge
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Sadge »

I have no idea.

I do know that understanding about the 4 noble truths can be gained outside of meditation, for example when I was reading about impermanence (for like the 10th time) I finally 'got it' (I didn't/don't 100% get it) but it was like a lightning bolt in the brain, a bit like 'of course! Why would there be conviction that the mind is connected to a body that is connected to the me-ness, why is there belief that things are permanent? That's clearly not right! Everything is transient and there is no me'. I often have unskillful thoughts when I forget this, but I reckon it must count for something!?
MrLearner
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by MrLearner »

Thanks everyone for their wonderful replies :smile: I respect them all. I still need a bit of time, to grasp the ideas here and give a proper reply. I'll do soon.
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Mohan Gnanathilake
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Mohan Gnanathilake »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:The way to enlightenment is the Noble Eightfold Path, of which meditation is a part.
I agree completely on this opinion. The Gautama Buddha taught his followers the same.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)
Luca123
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Luca123 »

It all depends on how to define "enlightenment" :)
Here in Japan I met about 20-30 who claim to have reached kensho
As far as I know Freud himself talked about the "oceanic experience"
Koestler wrote about this as well in the chapter "The hours by window"

http://2012diaries.blogspot.jp/2009/07/ ... indow.html

I know about other writings as well
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Spiny Norman »

reflection wrote:Please forgive me for being bald...
:tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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seeker242
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by seeker242 »

MrLearner wrote:Also to reach that goal, you need enjoy what you are doing.
I don't think that is the case at all! You don't need to enjoy every moment of it. Take athletes for example. No one enjoys running 50 or 100 laps until they are exhausted. That is not enjoyable for anyone! But, they just suck it up and exert some discipline and do it anyway. Because it's a very beneficial, often required, thing to do. If you want to win the race, you have to do the often difficult, not enjoyable training.

If all you do is what you enjoy, and avoid what you don't enjoy, that's a recipe for samsara, not enlightenment. It's just the same old circle of suffering, not the way to enlightenment. Enlightenment is difficult to get. It takes effort and discipline. If it was always enjoyable, it wouldn't require any effort to begin with.

Dhammapada talks about this some. :smile:
Verse 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase.

Verse 372: There can be no concentration in one who lacks wisdom; there can be no wisdom in one who lacks concentration. He who has concentration as well as wisdom is, indeed, close to Nibbana.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Sam Vara »

seeker242 wrote:
MrLearner wrote:Also to reach that goal, you need enjoy what you are doing.
I don't think that is the case at all! You don't need to enjoy every moment of it. Take athletes for example. No one enjoys running 50 or 100 laps until they are exhausted. That is not enjoyable for anyone! But, they just suck it up and exert some discipline and do it anyway. Because it's a very beneficial, often required, thing to do. If you want to win the race, you have to do the often difficult, not enjoyable training.
I agree entirely. It's not always pleasant going against one's harmful inclinations. There is also this sutta:
"Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"And which is painful practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a certain individual is normally of an intensely passionate nature. He perpetually experiences pain & distress born of passion. Or he is normally of an intensely aversive nature. He perpetually experiences pain & distress born of aversion. Or he is normally of an intensely deluded nature. He perpetually experiences pain & distress born of delusion. These five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy [1] that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with slow intuition.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Lamahewage
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Lamahewage »

to reach sothapanna stage no need to meditate.meditation is for sothapanna person to go ahead towards sakadaagaami ,anaagaami,and arihath.
refer sabbaasawa sutta in majjima nikaaya in pali canon.
if anybody could find an evidence in pali canon to prove anyone attained sothapanna by meditating.
sakkaya ditti,vicicichcha,seelabbatha paraamaasa,can be removed by dassanena pahaathabba
rest of the sanyojana kaamaraga to avijja by bhawanaanena pahaathabba.
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JMGinPDX
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by JMGinPDX »

Lamahewage wrote:to reach sothapanna stage no need to meditate.meditation is for sothapanna person to go ahead towards sakadaagaami ,anaagaami,and arihath.
refer sabbaasawa sutta in majjima nikaaya in pali canon.
if anybody could find an evidence in pali canon to prove anyone attained sothapanna by meditating.
sakkaya ditti,vicicichcha,seelabbatha paraamaasa,can be removed by dassanena pahaathabba
rest of the sanyojana kaamaraga to avijja by bhawanaanena pahaathabba.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any reference in MN2 that suggests meditation is only necessary for streamwinners on up.
Let's turn the tables - do you have a canonical reference where the Buddha stated meditation was NOT necessary for someone who is not yet a streamwinner?

I see lots of calls to meditation in the suttas [e.g. the repeated trope "Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you."] but nothing that specifically states "...but only if you're a Sotāpanna, Anagami, etc."

I, for one, cannot imagine attaining stream entry without some healthy degree of contemplation on the 3 marks of existence that are necessary to destroy personality view.
Right now, it's like this...
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Jojola
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Jojola »

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:The way to enlightenment is the Noble Eightfold Path, of which meditation is a part.
I agree completely on this opinion. The Gautama Buddha taught his followers the same.
Ditto.

And here is an analogy for consideration regarding the 3 aspects of the path (wisdom, virtue, and meditation).

Virtue is the threshold (between Samsara and Nibbana), Wisdom is the light to see in the room, and Meditation is the key to the door.
Regards,

- :heart:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha’s Teaching." - Nanavira Thera (1920-1965) :candle:
Lamahewage
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Lamahewage »

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any reference in MN2 that suggests meditation is only necessary for streamwinners on up.
Let's turn the tables - do you have a canonical reference where the Buddha stated meditation was NOT necessary for someone who is not yet a streamwinner?

Reffer sabbaasawa sutta in majjimaa nikaaya and find out what is meant by dassanena pahaatabba and bhawananena pahaatabba and what are the sanyojana removed by each.

Nettippakarana page 28 and 284
Lamahewage
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Re: Is meditation the only way to reach englightenment?

Post by Lamahewage »

JMGinPDX wrote:
Lamahewage wrote:to reach sothapanna stage no need to meditate.meditation is for sothapanna person to go ahead towards sakadaagaami ,anaagaami,and arihath.
refer sabbaasawa sutta in majjima nikaaya in pali canon.
if anybody could find an evidence in pali canon to prove anyone attained sothapanna by meditating.
sakkaya ditti,vicicichcha,seelabbatha paraamaasa,can be removed by dassanena pahaathabba
rest of the sanyojana kaamaraga to avijja by bhawanaanena pahaathabba.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any reference in MN2 that suggests meditation is only necessary for streamwinners on up.
Let's turn the tables - do you have a canonical reference where the Buddha stated meditation was NOT necessary for someone who is not yet a streamwinner?

I see lots of calls to meditation in the suttas [e.g. the repeated trope "Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places. Get down and meditate. Don't be lazy. Don't become one who is later remorseful. This is my instruction to you."] but nothing that specifically states "...but only if you're a Sotāpanna, Anagami, etc."

I, for one, cannot imagine attaining stream entry without some healthy degree of contemplation on the 3 marks of existence that are necessary to destroy personality view.
Refer nettippakarana. Page 28 and page 284
Where it says about bhawana(meditation)
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