The Benefits & Drawbacks of Pali

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Kamran
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kamran »

Its certainly better to read the texts in translation than not to read them at all.

But if you enjoy reading the suttas, why not try learning Pali?

In English speaking countries most people do not learn additional languages, so it may seem to be more difficult for them.

However, Pali is an Indo-European language, and the Pali Text Society has published everything in the Latin script, so there is no need to learn Pali script.
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BlackBird
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by BlackBird »

Kamran wrote: so there is no need to learn Pali script.
I don't believe there is one.
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Kamran wrote:But if you enjoy reading the suttas, why not try learning Pali?
I usually enjoy reading the suttas and I usually enjoy learing Pali. It's not a matter of enjoyment. It's a matter of priorities. When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Sylvester
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Sylvester »

Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
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Kare
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kare »

I find this thread rather strange and unreal. But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard to defend and justify ignorance.
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SDC
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by SDC »

danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
In conjunction, not above.

And it's not so much "mastering Pali" as it is to get the most out of the literature. If the translations are enough for you that's awesome.

EDIT - Just to echo Mike, I'm not sure what teachers your referring to.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
How does he? I don't have a copy of AN translation.
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

Kare wrote:I find this thread rather strange and unreal.
Don't worry about it. That's just the collapse of your clinging to a belief happening.
Kare wrote:But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard...
Hard? :rofl: Nothing hard about it.
Kare wrote:...to defend and justify ignorance.
Ignorance includes thinking your way of viewing things is how everyone else should see view them.
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
danieLion
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by danieLion »

SDC wrote:
danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
In conjunction, not above.

And it's not so much "mastering Pali" as it is to get the most out of the literature. If the translations are enough for you that's awesome.

EDIT - Just to echo Mike, I'm not sure what teachers your referring to.
Goldstein, Kornfield, Fella, Catherine...do I really need to go on?
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Mr Man
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Mr Man »

danieLion wrote:When I can't keep up with my Mexican maintenance man's Spanish, we don't stop and have a Spanish lesson. He just starts speaking English.
Now if you had bothered to learn Spanish properly......
Sylvester
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Sylvester »

danieLion wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
How does he? I don't have a copy of AN translation.
The Pali is surāmerayamajja pamādaṭṭhānā.

BB now translates it as "liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness".

The Pali syntax shows a nexus between the nouns and the quality, not a junction. In English, a Pali nexus is translated as above, or as "intoxicants, which are the basis for heedlessness". "That" is used more properly for Pali junctions, when the sutta is proposing a limited set of nouns possessing that quality. If the syntax indicates a nexus, the sutta is proposing the non-limitation of the set, ie all of the nouns in the universe possess the quality and in fact define the quality.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
SDC wrote:
danieLion wrote:Too many great Buddhist teachers have not mastered Pali--and many others have not even come close--for me to think it should be placed above using translations to guide our practice.
In conjunction, not above.

And it's not so much "mastering Pali" as it is to get the most out of the literature. If the translations are enough for you that's awesome.

EDIT - Just to echo Mike, I'm not sure what teachers your referring to.
Goldstein, Kornfield, Fella, Catherine...do I really need to go on?
I can say for a fact that Goldstein has studied Pali under the guidance of a scholar of Pali. How far he went with it, I cannot say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Kare
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kare »

danieLion wrote:
Kare wrote:I find this thread rather strange and unreal.
Don't worry about it. That's just the collapse of your clinging to a belief happening.
Kare wrote:But maybe it's only me, being baffled by seeing someone working so hard...
Hard? :rofl: Nothing hard about it.
I see. To some a preference of ignorance comes easily and naturally, then.
Kare wrote:...to defend and justify ignorance.
Ignorance includes thinking your way of viewing things is how everyone else should see view them.
Not learning Pali = not knowing Pali. Not knowing = ignorance.

My views are irrelevant here.
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Kare
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by Kare »

Sylvester wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Hmm, without some Pali, would one know how to interpret the 5th Precept? I see some really wonky interpretations out there that try to take advantage of a supposed loophole that exists only in English translations ("intoxicants that cause heedlessness"). See how BB now translates the Precept in the AN.
How does he? I don't have a copy of AN translation.
The Pali is surāmerayamajja pamādaṭṭhānā.

BB now translates it as "liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness".

The Pali syntax shows a nexus between the nouns and the quality, not a junction. In English, a Pali nexus is translated as above, or as "intoxicants, which are the basis for heedlessness". "That" is used more properly for Pali junctions, when the sutta is proposing a limited set of nouns possessing that quality. If the syntax indicates a nexus, the sutta is proposing the non-limitation of the set, ie all of the nouns in the universe possess the quality and in fact define the quality.
I don't know what you are referring to here. A nexus? In Pali the whole phrase is one composite word: surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā. And all of the elements are nouns. So I'm sorry, but I see no basis for your analysis.
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SDC
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Re: The Problem With Pali

Post by SDC »

danieLion wrote:Goldstein, Kornfield, Fella, Catherine...do I really need to go on?
Why so smug? Was I supposed to automatically know who you were referring to when you said 'great teachers'?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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