The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

last week i was listening to a man on the BBC who visted some Christian monastery in the mountains of lebanon.
He met this monk who had been on almost silent retreat for 4o years and was most impressed by his beatific look and speech while chanting from the bible
But of course this monk- while having states of mind and sila that might look better than the Belly sandwich addict- has not even an instant of satipatthana in his entire life, and no foreseeable way that he ever will.

The Dhamma is profound and not easily seen.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
The Dhamma is profound and not easily seen.
But the good thing is that the Dhamma is directly accessible, open to investigation here and now, and I think the Buddha was not such a poor teacher that he would not show us an efficacious way to realize what he realized.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Yes of course he did. But as the texts show it takes a long time to understand and realise the Dhamma, aeons even.
Dhamma practice is not some technique that one learns and repeats and rinses, it's not related to posture, and it is not about how much one wants to succeed.
It is about understanding what is what and what is not what.

I think we live immersed in lobha (craving) like a fish in water. Just giving up sensual pleasure is like a fish who stops swimming, like he is striking against his life, but he is still in the water.
So the way out is by seeing not doing.
daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

robertk wrote:But as the texts show it takes a long time to understand and realise the Dhamma, aeons even.
Or seven years, by some accounts. Seven months even!
Dhamma practice is not some technique that one learns and repeats and rinses
Hmm...
MN 95 wrote:"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."

"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. We regard this as the final attainment of the truth. But what quality is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for the final attainment of the truth."

"Exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Yes of course he did. But as the texts show it takes a long time to understand and realise the Dhamma, aeons even.
Keep telling yourself that and it will most likely be eons for you, no doubt.
Dhamma practice is not some technique that one learns and repeats and rinses, it's not related to posture, and it is not about how much one wants to succeed.
This is the unfortunate Sujin business of trying to demean other forms of practice other than what she teaches, but these distortions show no real maturity or understanding of the Dhamma.
It is about understanding what is what and what is not what.
It takes work, it is hard, but it is also something that can be done by cultivating the Dhamma, by cultivating the bases of insight as the Buddha taught.
I think we live immersed in lobha (craving) like a fish in water. Just giving up sensual pleasure is like a fish who stops swimming, like he is striking against his life, but he is still in the water.
So the way out is by seeing not doing.
"seeing not doing" Again, this shows a lack of comprehension of what other teachers are advocating; it shows a lack of understanding the Dhamma itself.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

Is wanting results the way to get them?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In the same way, any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.



"But as for any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining results
And how is right view developed?

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment...>
Source (edited extract):

The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:Is wanting results the way to get them?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In the same way, any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish [for results]... having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are incapable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an inappropriate way of obtaining results.



"But as for any brahmans or contemplatives endowed with right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining results
This does not support your position.
And how is right view developed?

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
"Directing his entire mind to it." Doing by choosing to do. The one thing I find really interesting about your quoting texts, they rarely if ever support your contentions, your point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

What is the effort that I think is valuable
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:What is the effort that I think is valuable
:
One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort.
One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.
Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Taking this snippet and the the sutta as a whole, a lot of doing in order to cultivate the seeing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
"
Directing his entire mind to it." Doing by choosing to do. The one thing I find really interesting about your quoting texts, they rarely if ever support your contentions, your point of view.
There is no self right? One person could try so hard to listen but not be able to comprehend, or feel distracted.
The sutta uses conventional terms but what is really happening when 'directing his entire mind to it" is that kusala cittas that are focused on the sutta arise.

And they have causes and conditions.

But anyway does the sutta imply to you that it is a meditation technique that is what the Buddha meant?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
But anyway does the sutta imply to you that it is a meditation technique that is what the Buddha meant?
Still stuck on this "meditation technique" business as a way of dismissing that which you do not agree with. Still missing the forest for the trees.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
But anyway does the sutta imply to you that it is a meditation technique that is what the Buddha meant?
Still stuck on this "meditation technique" business as a way of dismissing that which you do not agree with. Still missing the forest for the trees.
This thread, which I began, started with the causes for wisdom to arise and I thought I had given evidence that it is by study and consideration of the teachings that are the prime causes.
When you put "meditation technique" in quotation marks what do you mean?
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
But anyway does the sutta imply to you that it is a meditation technique that is what the Buddha meant?
Still stuck on this "meditation technique" business as a way of dismissing that which you do not agree with. Still missing the forest for the trees.
This thread, which I began, started with the causes for wisdom to arise and I thought I had given evidence that it is by study and consideration of the teachings that are the prime causes.
"Study and consideration" are things that one actively, by choice, does.
When you put "meditation technique" in quotation marks what do you mean?
It is in quotes because it is an expression you are using in what looks to be a dismissive way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

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It should be so that the theory agrees with the practice.
SO studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control. Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast.

In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says:
In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc."

The quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. That is why trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika, itself conditioned by various factors, and so ephemeral.


Now for some it will be that feelings appear more frequently than other objects, for others it might be taste , for others the hindrances. This is due to accumulations from the recent and distant past.
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:It should be so that the theory agrees with the practice.
SO studying directly- even at a very basic level- the way different objects present themselves should weaken the idea of control. Can we decide what the next moment is? I don't think so. Is it seeing or hearing or feeling or dosa or metta or delusion or sound that just arose? It is all happening because of conditions that we are not even aware of and it is all happening very fast.
But the nice thing is that we can can cultivate by our actions the conditions that give rise to insight, seeing, that leads to awakening. It is what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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