Hi Steve,
If you have an experience of grace it is not necessary to attribute it to some "other" and it certainly does not help to attribute it to "self". Just notice if it supports wholesome states of mind or not. If it doesn't then what is the point in calling it "grace". If you do not have an experience of grace then its just a word without any reference that will just cause confusion.
I associate grace with recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. I am inspired and reassured by the recollection and consequently tend towards much more wholesome attitudes and activities. This is not merely because of something I "do". For me it is an experience which is like getting help from some "other" but that is not quite true either.
Take Care
Prasadachitta
Grace in Buddhism?
- Prasadachitta
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Re: Grace in Buddhism?
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Prasadachitta wrote:Hi Steve,
If you have an experience of grace it is not necessary to attribute it to some "other" and it certainly does not help to attribute it to "self". Just notice if it supports wholesome states of mind or not. If it doesn't then what is the point in calling it "grace". If you do not have an experience of grace then its just a word without any reference that will just cause confusion.
I associate grace with recollecting the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. I am inspired and reassured by the recollection and consequently tend towards much more wholesome attitudes and activities. This is not merely because of something I "do". For me it is an experience which is like getting help from some "other" but that is not quite true either.
Take Care
Prasadachitta
_/|\_
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
No problem from where I stand, you are not being defensive. I apologise on behalf of anyone who has made you feel belittled for asking a perfectly natural question for a beginner to ask. Anyway, rest assured that it's fine to ask questions, and as you correctly allude to, a beginner should not be chastised for asking questions, when embarking on a new field of inquiry.qoheleth wrote:...
Perhaps there is a Beginner's Forum I should have posed this question in? Is every newcomer here who asks an out-of-the-norm question called out for ignorance?! I have read and thought about the 4NT a great deal, actually. Anyway, I admit I am interested in this now in a fairly curious and academic sense. I ask in part because of something a friend of mine said once. He has attended several of the 10 day Goenka Vipassana retreats, and he quoted Goenka as saying something like: "The Dhamma wants you to be awakened," or "it begins to work with you", or something to that effect. I realize that he does not represent Theravada, but it made me think of the concept of grace, and while I have never encountered anything like it in my readings of Theravada Buddhism, I was curious to explore the issue a little with knowledgeable people. Maybe grace isn't quite the right word... and I certainly wasn't expecting to discover a mysterious divine savior in Theravada Buddhism! Perhaps I have completely misunderstood what my friend or Goenka meant...
EDIT: After re-reading my original question, I think I can better understand your response. I don't mean to be defensive.
According to my understanding, it's not so much that there is some 'presence' that is 'out there' that can grant us salvation, no. But we are blessed to have access to the teachings left behind by the Buddha, and what's more, there are still teachers around who can aid us in understanding & applying those teachings. That is the 'blessing' we can be thankful for. As for how we came to be here at a time when the teachings are still accessible - one would need the power of recollection of past lives to have a chance of that, afaik. Best just to focus on taking advantage of what we've got - the vast and detailed teachings left behind by the Buddha. I don't think that's the same as the Theistic notion of 'grace' but for me, there is still an element of the miraculous about it. I look at my own life, and the strange and convoluted journey I have made thus far, to the point where somehow, many of those awful events in my life, have ended up helping me to understand the Buddha-Dhamma, ultimately. It can feel like a kind of 'grace' to see how all of the pain and sufferings one has been though, kind of make sense one day, and one no longer feels so bad about them. I feel blessed to have had the opportunity to learn what I have learned thus far.
Finally, I offer that we did not discover the Four Noble Truths & Noble Eightfold Path on our own. We learned them from someone else, and tracing it all the way back the teaching originates with the Buddha. That is a source external to ourselves, outside of ourselves. But if we take the teachings to heart and apply them well, eventually they get internalised and we become 'our own refuge'. Bear in mind, though, what came first - the imbibing of the Teachings. When we have reached a certain level in this, then it is that we can become our own refuge. It is not that while still a worldling who knows nothing of Dhamma that we can read that line and say, "the Blessed One says I can just be my own refuge, that means I can rely exclusively on my own understanding". Aiui, that's not what 'be your own refuge' actually means.
I hope that was in some way helpful.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Quite helpful, indeed!manas wrote: I hope that was in some way helpful.
Thanks kindly, manas and Prasadachitta.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
There are probably many people out there who pray to shakyamuni Buddha and lean on him. But that's probably not the widely accepted interpretation of shakyamuni Buddha's teachings.
Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Sam Vara and Mr Man are on to something when they talk about favourable conditions and boon and barami. Here's a formulaic statement from the suttas about how ex-monks reflect on their dropping out of the monastic life -
It's not clear from the suttas or the Vinaya what the Buddha or the redactors themselves thought about this sob-sob reaction, but it's quite clear from the texts that the speakers believe what they said about lacking the supporting conditions for success in the monastic life. Not quite "grace" in the theistic sense of from "another", but what are we anyway if not the product of "our" past?mayamevamhā alakkhikā mayaṃ appapuññā te mayaṃ evaṃ svākkhāte dhammavinaye pabbajitvā nāsakkhimhā yāvajīvaṃ paripuṇṇaṃ parisuddhaṃ brahmacariyaṃ caritu’’nti
We were unlucky, we have little merit; for though we went forth into homelessness in such a well-proclaimed Dhamma, we were unable to live the perfect and pure holy life for the rest of our lives.
eg MN 77
- Prasadachitta
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Re: Grace in Buddhism?
Either unfathomably more than that or nothing at all.Sylvester wrote:what are we anyway if not the product of "our" past?
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Grace in Buddhism?
That doesn't mean that the Dhamma is some kind of omnipotence granting you something you don't deserve because of it's benevolence (aka grace). What i believe Goenka is saying is that you are working in harmony with nature and when you work in harmony with nature you are no longer resisting nature so things start falling into place, harmony leads to more harmony.qoheleth wrote:He has attended several of the 10 day Goenka Vipassana retreats, and he quoted Goenka as saying something like: "The Dhamma wants you to be awakened," or "it begins to work with you", or something to that effect. I realize that he does not represent Theravada, but it made me think of the concept of grace,
It's all about how you work, not free gifts.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah