Magick and Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Viscid
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by Viscid »

For the uninitiated, is there a good Crowley documentary or resource you'd particularly recommend? I think I have a general sense of what Crowley was trying to do.. a sort of creative approach to ritual in order to liberate, but I'm not down with the details.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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manas
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by manas »

Thelema is inherently theistic, self-based, and at odds with Buddhist cosmology and soteriology.
Just in case I'm not the only one who keeps seeing that word and doesn't know what it means:
Definition of SOTERIOLOGY:

theology dealing with salvation (especially as effected by Jesus Christ)
— so·te·ri·o·log·i·cal adjective

Origin of SOTERIOLOGY

Greek sōtērion salvation (from sōtēr savior, preserver) + English -logy
First Known Use: circa 1774

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soteriology
Ok, *phew* My vocabulary, of necessity, continues to be expanded by visiting this site of erudite savants.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
danieLion
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

LY. Have you read Perdurabo?
LonesomeYogurt wrote:his repeated use of hashish, mescaline, etc. for spiritual and recreational purposes.
relevance? (5th precept not relevant)
the Abbey of Thelema - a place, I might add, that was almost completely devoted to indulgence in the name of discovering the "Higher Will."
hearsay...document

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Certainly, and it is not.
mere opinion...document
LonesomeYogurt wrote:I think the way I practice holds the Buddha's teachings as more important than and authoritative over the teachings of non-Buddhist occultists.
relevance?
LonesomeYogurt wrote:I am referring to actions that are either (proudly) admitted to by Crowley himself or historically undeniable
document
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Reliance on the power of outside beings for spiritual development is not Buddhism.
so you rely on inside beings, a.k.a. yourself...are you teacherless?
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Ego is one type of self; the belief in "True Will" or an ultimate self is equally non-Buddhist.
mere opinion/hearsay; document
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Not when it comes to the essentially theistic vs. atheistic approach of each
mere opinion/hearsay; document
LonesomeYogurt wrote:As I've said in other threads, I was very into magick for a while as a younger person. I doubt I have read everything but I am certainly no stranger to his thought.
relevance?
LonesomeYogurt wrote:His Jataka tale stuff, Essay in Ontology, his commentary on Blavatsky, Science and Buddhism, Aleister Crowley, The Golden Dawn and Buddhism by Yorke, some other stuff hidden in his early work.
stuff? you've accused AC of not being shcolarly rigorous; you are now being held to the same standard; cite and document; demonstrate your knowledge of all the available information is proficient; otherwise its mere opinion/hearsay
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Then how would you explain his awkward synthesis of Buddhist philosophy with explicitly anti-Buddhist doctrine, especially considering their inherent contradictions are either ignored or, one suspects, intentionally downplayed? The evidence is, again, his incredibly poorly thought-out co-opting of Buddhist concepts and terms for use in his larger, explicitly anti-Buddhist system.
that's not evidence; it's hearsay/mere opinion; document
danieLion
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Viscid wrote:For the uninitiated, is there a good Crowley documentary or resource you'd particularly recommend? I think I have a general sense of what Crowley was trying to do.. a sort of creative approach to ritual in order to liberate, but I'm not down with the details.
The book Perdurabo and it's references.
Kenshou
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by Kenshou »

danieLion wrote:I'm not a Crowley apologist.
Sure fooled me.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

danieLion wrote:Exclusively? You're never going to read anything else?
Yes, that's obviously what I mean. :roll:

Daniel, it is obvious that you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion about these things. Your obsessive cries of "document" and "relevance?" are not done out of a good faith desire to have a meaningful discussion but instead are little more than self-serving obfuscation, and I think everyone sees it. If you want to raise up a recreational drug user, sexual libertine, and theistic, self-affirming occultist as a reasonably reliable guide to Buddhism, then you can do that - but don't be surprised when those who take the Buddha's words seriously react with a certain disbelief, and don't be surprised when they become disinterested in epistemological games instead of real, tangible discussion.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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manas
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by manas »

If I may digress from Crowley for a moment - it just occurred to me, that Devadatta (the Buddha's cousin) had attained supernormal powers, but without being firmly established in discernment (he had not attained stream entry, so was liable to fall back). So unless one had at least attained stream entry or above, magical powers could be risky, even dangerous, because they could inflate one's sense of self, and if someone used those powers to 'get what they want' in the sensual realm - possibly impacting on other beings in the process - there could be a risk of getting involved in some heavy kamma. If without a high degree of virtue and wisdom, one's magical powers could end up dragging one to hell! (Possibly.) On the other hand. one could use them exclusively for good instead, and help one's fellow beings. But still, unless one had entered the stream, sounds like a risky place to be.

I recall reading that in the ancient 'Mystery Schools', knowledge was guarded and not revealed to just anyone, for that very reason - to keep unworthy or immoral persons from having access to potentially destructive powers. I can see a parallel with Buddhist practice, in that one's samadhi should be informed by the other seven limbs of the Path, and not attempted in isolation, merely for the sake of 'blissing out' or whatever. If it's not done with right view, it won't be noble right samadhi. (As I currently understand it):
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Manas is right - Crowley's, or any magick practitioner's, attainment of Jhana is still wrong concentration if it is not aimed at dispassion and release.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Keep it simple. Anything that diverges from the below is in my opinion off topic to the "Magick" portion of the OP.
I. DEFINITION:

MAGICK

is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will.*

(Illustration: It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take "magical weapons," pen, ink, and paper; I write "incantations"—these sentences—in the "magical language" i.e. that which is understood by people I wish to instruct. I call forth "spirits" such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to those people. The composition and distribution is thus an act of

MAGICK

by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will.)....

III. THEOREMS:

1. Every intentional act is a Magical Act.

(Ilustration: See "Definition" above.)

* In one sense Magick may be said to be the name given to Science by the vulgar.

By "intentional" I mean "willed." But even unintentional acts so seeming are not truly so. Thus, breathing is an act of the Will-to-live.
Magick Without Tears, Chapter I: What is Magick?
danieLion
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

Properly distinguish among Crowley's personal ideas/opinions/behaviors, Magick proper, Systematic Thelema and the order of the A.'.A.'., which does not require, or to my knowl-dge even encourage, sex magick, drug use, or anything else generally considered "unethical" by the the more dogmatic minds among us.

When you fail to make these distinctions you are in my opinion off topic from the "Magick" portion of the OP.
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convivium
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by convivium »

his name is the great beast 666. :twisted:
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Polar Bear
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by Polar Bear »

So drinking water is magick if I will to drink water. I guess we're all magicians. But I now find this all very mundane.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
danieLion
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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Here's an interesting one for you...

Post by danieLion »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exclusively? You're never going to read anything else?
Yes, that's obviously what I mean. :roll:

Daniel, it is obvious that you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion about these things. Your obsessive cries of "document" and "relevance?" are not done out of a good faith desire to have a meaningful discussion but instead are little more than self-serving obfuscation, and I think everyone sees it. If you want to raise up a recreational drug user, sexual libertine, and theistic, self-affirming occultist as a reasonably reliable guide to Buddhism, then you can do that - but don't be surprised when those who take the Buddha's words seriously react with a certain disbelief, and don't be surprised when they become disinterested in epistemological games instead of real, tangible discussion.
How did you figure all this out? It's like you know me inside out. It's amazing how accurately you've understood my intentions and the deepest meanings of my behaviors. You must have incredible mind-reading talents. You're so good at it, you've even divined everyone elses intentions too! I'm extremely impressed. You've especially done a good job of seeing just how much I doubt the Buddhavacana. You've even proven once and for that with enough faith and conviction that it's possible to abuse the distinction between appearance and reality with impunity. Good show. Bravo! Bravo!! :clap: What will you do for your next illusion? Card tricks? Pull a rabbit out your hat? Stick a needle through a baloon? I can't wait.
danieLion
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

manas wrote:If I may digress from Crowley for a moment - it just occurred to me, that Devadatta (the Buddha's cousin) had attained supernormal powers, but without being firmly established in discernment (he had not attained stream entry, so was liable to fall back). So unless one had at least attained stream entry or above, magical powers could be risky, even dangerous, because they could inflate one's sense of self, and if someone used those powers to 'get what they want' in the sensual realm - possibly impacting on other beings in the process - there could be a risk of getting involved in some heavy kamma. If without a high degree of virtue and wisdom, one's magical powers could end up dragging one to hell! (Possibly.) On the other hand. one could use them exclusively for good instead, and help one's fellow beings. But still, unless one had entered the stream, sounds like a risky place to be.

I recall reading that in the ancient 'Mystery Schools', knowledge was guarded and not revealed to just anyone, for that very reason - to keep unworthy or immoral persons from having access to potentially destructive powers. I can see a parallel with Buddhist practice, in that one's samadhi should be informed by the other seven limbs of the Path, and not attempted in isolation, merely for the sake of 'blissing out' or whatever. If it's not done with right view, it won't be noble right samadhi. (As I currently understand it):
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Metta :anjali:
What evidence do you have that Crowley didn't enter the stream? Are you psychic? A time traveller? A time travelling psychic? Stream enterers are far from perfect and capable of making a lot of mistakes--up to seven lifetimes worth, to be precise.

Do you know any stream enterers? If so, how do you know they are?
danieLion
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Re: Magick and Buddhism

Post by danieLion »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Manas is right - Crowley's, or any magick practitioner's, attainment of Jhana is still wrong concentration if it is not aimed at dispassion and release.
Said the Parrot on manas' shoulder.
Last edited by danieLion on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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