Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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badscooter
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby badscooter » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:17 pm

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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tobes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:06 pm


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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:49 pm

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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tobes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:18 am


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tobes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:27 am


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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:33 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:34 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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tobes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:35 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:45 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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tobes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:52 am


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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:58 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:27 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:29 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:32 am

Here is a note from my studies of the second Pārājika on theft.

2. Copyright and unlicensed computer software copying does fall under this rule as it is similar to evasion of tax/customs duty. On another hand "Criminal Offences" are infringing acts of copyright carried out for commercial or trading purposes. They are "significant" where profit from the infringement amounts to one Pāda or more than one Pāda, as is the standard for this offence, and Criminal Offences where the profit is less than one pada would then be either thullacaya (if it is one to four masakas) or dukkaṭa if less than one māsaka. However, some disagree to copyrght and unlicenced computer software copying being grounds for a Pārājika, and as it is intellectual property the evasion of duty and tax is the closest as no actual property is stolen, although loss of legally valid income does potentially happen. In short criminal acts of copyright are parajika, thullacaya or dukkata. Non-criminal acts of copyright infringement should be considered as dukkata at most.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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BlackBird
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:09 am

As an interesting footnote to discussion on the 2nd Parajika - It isn't a parajika unless the theft is of something of value above 1/24th a troy ounce of gold. Which would be ~ $67 USD. So anything over $67 and you're no longer a monk. I'm not sure if this is used in practice however.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Buckwheat » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:42 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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BlackBird
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:50 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

K.Dhamma
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby K.Dhamma » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:18 pm

It's hard to say. I like to draw up analogies when things like this occur.

Your neighbor has an apple tree. You buy an apple from him. Seeds and all. Instead of throwing out the seeds you plant the seeds and in 5 years you have an apple tree of your own. You decide to give away your apples instead of sell them to anyone. So your neighbor doesn't get any money anymore from his apples because you used HIS apple seeds to grow your own tree.

Does this make it right? Depends on whether there was an known or even unmentioned agreement that you wouldn't use the seeds to put him out of business.

When you give away a CD or DVD was it because you felt compelled to let others enjoy the fruits of your labor/money? Was it to make the other person lose money because CD's and DVD's cost too much these days?

Are you looking for the CD or DVD online because you choose not to spend money to get it? Doesn't that err on the side of greediness? Are you under the assumption that the person offering it was giving it to you specifically? Are you the intended receiver?
Lots of questions.
I feel that anymore most people tend to ebb on the side of giving away because they don't want others to have to spend money. Then again, I can't read minds so I cannot conclude this absolutely.

I think it comes down to intention. On both the receiving side and giving side. If your intentions are deceitful, then yes it is an infraction. If a friend gives you a CD or DVD that is burned or allows you to copy it from his computer because he knows you really enjoy that particular one and gives it to you freely without asking for anything in return then I suppose it doesn't violate it. Again, I am a layperson and this is just my input. This is a rather interesting conversation though.


Just a footnote: Put it into context of a virtue. Sometimes that sheds some light on the truth of things.
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah

Dennenappelmoes
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Dennenappelmoes » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:23 pm

It is a violation if you agree that it is indeed illegal. You do not necessarily have to agree with the laws of your particular country.

For example, the Eightfold Path's notion of "sexual misconduct" is deliberately not specified in detail, as what is considered "misconduct" varies from society to society. For example, in some society it is accepted to have multiple wives, whereby sleeping with another woman does not cause suffering, whereas in another society it does.

I think the true wisdom in all Buddhist precepts and advices lies in the very fact they are open to and welcoming your own honest interpretation.

To say that "illegal downloading" violates the precept per se does not make any sense. Whether or not this is deemed illegal and/or punishable (and maybe there are other qualifications than just these two as well) chances from one government to the next. This would mean that one year you violate a precept and the next year you don't. Don't look to governments, to capitalism, or whatever other system that tries to tell you what to to. Mind you, it has taken a whole lot of breaking precepts to come up with this whole copyright philosophy in the first place.

Is it a violation if a researcher can save millions of lives developing a new drug but violates a patent? Only if the researcher sincerely believes in the patent system. Be true to your own heart. Don't you think that is what the Buddha would have wanted for you as well? :namaste:

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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:42 pm



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