The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Nibbida
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
christopher::: wrote:Why would we want to do that, show that the idea of God is not meaningful?
Because it is not meaningful.
For you.
Nor for the Buddha, which puts me in good company.

J VI.208"

== "He who eyes can see the sickening sight, why does not God set his creatures right? If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand so rarely spread to bless? Why are his creatures all condemned to pain? Why does he not to all give happiness? Why do fraud, lies, and ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood, -truth and justice fail? I count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong." ==

J V.238:

== "If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery, the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God alone is responsible." ==
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

The God of Kabbalah, Advaita, much like "The Way" of Taoism, is not an Omnipotent being watching over everything from a distance, like the old man in the bible, Tilt. God (in these traditions) is more like Awareness, Love, Wisdom, Creativity... Things go wrong, beings suffer, when not in touch with that wisdom and love, just as we Buddhists know we will suffer when not in touch with (living in tune with) the Dhamma...

For many (not all) Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, God is "The Way" - the Source of all life, inspiration and guide for how to live with generosity, optimism, kindness and compassion. In that sense belief in God serves a meaningful purpose. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired by their faith, they take refuge in their belief in a wise and loving God, just as we take refuge in the dharma.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:The God of Kabbalah, Advaita, much like "The Way" of Taoism, is not an Omnipotent being watching over everything from a distance, like the old man in the bible, Tilt. God (in these traditions) is more like Awareness, Love, Wisdom, Creativity... Things go wrong, beings suffer, when not in touch with that wisdom and love, just as we Buddhists know we will suffer when not in touch with (living in tune with) the Dhamma...

For many (not all) Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, God is "The Way" - the Source of all life, inspiration and guide for how to live with generosity, optimism, kindness and compassion. In that sense belief in God serves a meaningful purpose. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired by their faith, they take refuge in their belief in a wise and loving God, just as we take refuge in the dharma.
Did the god of whatever create the universe?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by mikenz66 »

christopher::: wrote: For many (not all) Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, God is "The Way" - the Source of all life, inspiration and guide for how to live with generosity, optimism, kindness and compassion. In that sense belief in God serves a meaningful purpose. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired by their faith, they take refuge in their belief in a wise and loving God, just as we take refuge in the dharma.
Yes, and I would agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
I do respect Christians, and so on. But in my opinion respect is very different from pretending that "it's all the same thing." Because that sort of "it's all the same" statement can actually come across as incredibly judgemental. In effect it says: "I think that all religions are the same, but you are too dumb to see it."

I honestly don't know whether all, or some, religions lead to the same goal. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. But the details of the paths are often very different, and, in my view, incompatible in terms of practise.

Obviously I also don't know if the Buddha's path leads to the correct goal. It will be interesting to find out...

Metta
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

tiltbillings wrote:
Did the god of whatever create the universe?
That is what many people believe, Tilt. Others believe this Creative presence is the Universe, that God's Awareness looks out from behind all our eyes, that there is no duality of creation and creator...
mikenz66 wrote:
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists.
Thanks for sharing Bhikkhu Bodhi, Mike, i was just looking at that essay, actually. The first part really gets to the heart of this matter, imo. Right here, right now, what is the fruit of a person's practice? That for me is the most meaningful thing...

:group:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Did the god of whatever create the universe?
That is what many people believe, Tilt. Others believe this Creative presence is the Universe, that God's Awareness looks out from behind all our eyes, that there is no duality of creation and creator...
That must explain Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, AIDS, cancer. Twain was right.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by mikenz66 »

christopher::: wrote: That is what many people believe, Tilt. Others believe this Creative presence is the Universe, that God's Awareness looks out from behind all our eyes, that there is no duality of creation and creator...
And, as I have pointed out, these ideas seem to contradict the Dhamma that I am familiar with: the Buddha's words, the instructions of my teachers, the experiences that I have in my practise, etc.

As I said above, I respect other paths, but they make no sense in the context of my practise.

Can we get back to discussing Theravada Dhamma?

Mike
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings


The move from "God the father" to "God the awareness/consciousness" has been, from what i can tell, a reaction to the discoveries such as round earth, evolution, carbon dating etc (hinduism and Kabbalah is slightly exempt from this)


That is what many people believe, Tilt. Others believe this Creative presence is the Universe, that God's Awareness looks out from behind all our eyes, that there is no duality of creation and creator...
No offence but this just sounds like New Age speak

As for creator this falls down completely. Are you telling me that an all powerful, all knowing being (of whatever kind) created such a hostile and cruel universe?

A universe where life has to feed on life, a universe where the vast majority of it is two hostile for life to even begin on (as far as we know), a universe that looks like its going to end up a vast, cold empty wasteland in billions of years time. A universe where there is rape, murder, genocide. A universe where these bodies are faulty resulting in cancer among other things


If you really think there is a creator then you have to square it with these questions put for by Epicurus

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" — Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief

Most religions are aware of this problem of evil, hence why they have such stories as Adam and Eve and Original Sin. However as we now know these things never happened


There is most likely no creator God and if there is it doesnt care about its creation



Why would we want to do that, show that the idea of God is not meaningful?
Because it can help some people get out of such a view
How would you feel if someone tried to convince you that the ideas of karma, rebirth and dharma were not meaningful?
In relation to my understanding of those terms they couldnt, rebirth is obvious and plain as day. Kamma is a little bit more abstract
Seems to me these are all ideas addressing the same deep questions: How does reality work, why does the Universe exist, why is life the way it is, why do we suffer?
Only the last one is a question the Buddha dealt with, metaphysical questions (reguardless of if he knew them or not) are not something the Buddha was concerned with
Where did laws of karma, rebirth, dharma come from? For a Buddhist its not an important question, for a person who believes in God the answer is quite obvious....
Perhaps it just is? Why does something have to have an agent behind it. This body is just body, no agent behind it there so why does kamma or gravity need one?
And very meaningful.
Its a nice fuzzy view but it doesnt really explain or mean all that much outside of providing comfort

well, exactly. there are some pretty nasty passages in the Jewish old testament, especially. thus the dangers of literal interpretations and fundamentalism.
If you truly believe that those are the word of God, without going into post enlightenment rational thinking (or pre-enlightenment Buddhist Dhamma), then God hates gays and its ok to persecute them
My understanding, from discussions with Jewish friends, is that a tradition of interpretation developed in Judiasm, in part because many rabbis and sages felt the old teachings should not be taken literally...
Perhaps they didnt like having to stone their child to death if it back chats :shrug: (yes its in the bible)
As for God though, i won't debate the issue too much, but there are varying ways that a supreme creative being can be conceptualized and Hinduism is actually a bit more open there, imo, then some other faiths.
Hinduism is unique in its take on other religions. Instead of trying to destroy them by force (verbally or with physical action) it takes the tact of "all is one" and thus attempts to absorb said religion into itself
God or Brahman is thought of as the ultimate source or creative wisdom which has brought all that exists and is aware into being. God in this view is not watching over or judging us, God is the presence/awareness that resides everywhere, within each of us.
So it sits back and watches as the Jews were being gassed?
You may not believe this, but how can it be proven wrong?
It cant but neither can Zeus, Osiris, Unicorns, fairies, wizards, witches ........

It's a matter of faith...
Blind faith
Where did laws of karma, rebirth, dharma come from? For a Buddhist its not an important question, for a person who believes in God the answer is quite obvious....
Wrong questions in Buddhism and i dont think one will ever get an answer to it

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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Cras id, tellus wisi quisque curabitur, erat augue lacus lectus pretium, lacus quam tellus vitae quam. Nullam lorem nunc, velit maecenas, vestibulum sed suspendisse eget sem, velit sed, sed libero id. Nec a et. Fermentum senectus consectetuer, faucibus est pharetra vel ac rhoncus nec, ultrices sed mauris perspiciatis odio, ut neque neque posuere. Ullamcorper odio nunc wisi posuere. Pede est vestibulum, eu nunc pharetra, id maecenas accumsan quam faucibus luctus, habitasse vel sagittis eu convallis, urna dolor. Ac dolor ac tellus libero quis lacinia, justo elit vel quis, vestibulum viverra pellentesque sit. Quis tortor ullamcorper amet magnis hymenaeos potenti, interdum mollis quam aliquam turpis nihil.
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Individual »

christopher::: wrote:Why would we want to do that, show that the idea of God is not meaningful?
To dispel illusions, although it depends on the context. You don't want to go around proselytizing Buddhism, but when the question comes up, it's good to affirm that there's no supreme God. The Buddha was very specific in arguing against worship of gods or the idea of a supreme, benevolent God.
christopher::: wrote: How would you feel if someone tried to convince you that the ideas of karma, rebirth and dharma were not meaningful?
Like a non-deluded person being bothered by a deluded proselytizer, which is not the same as a wise person speaking the truth.
mikenz66 wrote:
christopher::: wrote: That is what many people believe, Tilt. Others believe this Creative presence is the Universe, that God's Awareness looks out from behind all our eyes, that there is no duality of creation and creator...
And, as I have pointed out, these ideas seem to contradict the Dhamma that I am familiar with: the Buddha's words, the instructions of my teachers, the experiences that I have in my practise, etc.

As I said above, I respect other paths, but they make no sense in the context of my practise.

Can we get back to discussing Theravada Dhamma?

Mike
Even regarding the universe as a kind of "person," a panentheistic notion of God -- this seems to be the same thing as the wrong view of regarding the UNIVERSE as self.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by mikenz66 »

Individual wrote: Even regarding the universe as a kind of "person," a panentheistic notion of God -- this seems to be the same thing as the wrong view of regarding the UNIVERSE as self.
Yes, as I said, these other paths appear to contradict the Dhamma.

As Nibbada says, it's not a problem to talk with people following other paths, but I'd add that where the paths diverge it's best to acknowledge it, rather than to try to force it to be the same.

The Dalai Lama is often quoted as saying that if someone has a spiritual path that they like, then he does not want to encourage them to change to Buddhism. But as far as I can see he doesn't say that those path are the same. I think this quote from Ajahn Buddhadasa actually implies the same thing:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... t=0#p20040" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the same way, one who has attained to the ultimate truth sees that there's no such thing as "religion." There is only a certain nature which can be called whatever we like. We can call it "Dhamma," we can call it "Truth," we can call it "God," "Tao," or whatever, but we shouldn't particularize that Dhamma or that Truth as Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Judaism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, or Islam, for we can neither capture nor confine it with labels and concepts. Still, such divisions occur because people haven't yet realized this nameless truth for themselves. They have only reached the external levels, just as with canal-water, muddy water, and the rest.
He's claiming that at some ultimate level things can be recognised as the same (which I can neither confirm nor deny) but for those of us at the "external level" they certainly look different.

Metta
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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Look, i didn't jump in here to defend a belief in God as being "true" or "correct".. Everyone participating here is a Buddhist, thus the dharma is what makes most sense to you. I just fail to see why the beliefs of others need to be kicked around and belittled. Bikkhu Bodhi talked about having respect for other faiths. But this is the General Theravadin section, not the Dhamma free-for-all, so i will not go on endlessly defending what is meaningful to others.

That was my main point anyway, that belief in God is meaningful to many people, they go to refuge in God just as we go to refuge in the 3 jewels. I have many friends who believe in God and my observation has been that this belief has been helpful in their lives. I don't see a problem with what they believe, as long as it helps them. If you all disagree, that's just the way it is, you disagree.
Nibbida wrote:
christopher::: wrote:The God of Kabbalah, Advaita, much like "The Way" of Taoism, is not an Omnipotent being watching over everything from a distance, like the old man in the bible, Tilt. God (in these traditions) is more like Awareness, Love, Wisdom, Creativity... Things go wrong, beings suffer, when not in touch with that wisdom and love, just as we Buddhists know we will suffer when not in touch with (living in tune with) the Dhamma...

For many (not all) Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, God is "The Way" - the Source of all life, inspiration and guide for how to live with generosity, optimism, kindness and compassion. In that sense belief in God serves a meaningful purpose. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired by their faith, they take refuge in their belief in a wise and loving God, just as we take refuge in the dharma.
This is a good point. All religions have "mystical" traditions, who seek to experience God through direct experience via meditation. I'm reading The Cloud of Unknowing right now, which was written by an anonymous medieval person, probably a monk. I find that in many passages, if you take out the word God and insert nirvana or emptiness, it would sound exactly as if it were written by a Buddhist. I think the ultimate goal of any spiritual practice is transcendence. Contemplating literature across traditions repeatedly cites annihilating the separate sense of self as a goal. In other religions, they personify this into a God, while in Buddhism we see it just as emptiness.

As the Buddha said, the vehicle is just a raft to get you to the other shore. I think Buddhists have done the best job of conceptualizing the path and developing techniques to get the job done, but maybe I'm just biased.

But when I see it in these terms, I really have no problems talking to people of other religions about their beliefs. The terms are different, but we can all relate to that basic aspect of transcendence.
Yep. That's how i see it as well. Nice post.

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by mikenz66 »

christopher::: wrote:Look, i didn't jump in here to defend a belief in God as being "true" or "correct".. Everyone participating here is a Buddhist, thus the dharma is what makes most sense to you. I just fail to see why the beliefs of others need to be kicked around and belittled. Bikkhu Bodhi talked about having respect for other faiths. But this is the General Theravadin section, not the Dhamma free-for-all, so i will not go on endlessly defending what is meaningful to others.
I agree on the respect stuff, and there's no reason why a Buddhist shouldn't get some inspiration from other religions, any more then there is a reason why we shouldn't read non-Buddhist literature or listen to non-Buddhist music.

But what I keep trying to point out is that faith in God and faith in the Dhamma are, in my opinion, incompatible at a practise level. It's like trying to mix tennis and ping pong. Both are good games in their own right but if you try to use a ping pong bat to play on a tennis court (or vice versa) you won't get very far...

So, on a Buddhist Forum, it's quite sensible to make argument as to why God is incompatible with Buddhist practise.

Metta
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Mike. I am in no way advocating that Buddhists should embrace the idea of God. Just to recognize that for others its playing a very important role. So much so that we should show a bit more respect, for that which others hold as essential and sacred. Otherwise we can become (in a purely metaphorical sense) not that different from the Taliban blowing up Buddha statues...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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