The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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clw_uk
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The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:18 pm

Hey



Does anyone know what page this line is on

The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God." MN II 68.


In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, ive read and re-read by i cant find it


thanks
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tiltbillings
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:04 pm


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Guy
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Guy » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:13 pm

Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm

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clw_uk
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:27 pm

Thanks Tilt


indeed i am, it stopped for a few days but has started up again now


I quoted that passage above and the response was basically "i dont think Buddha would have said that"



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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:36 pm

'There are [states the Buddha], Bhaggava, some ascetics and Brahmins who declare as their doctrine that all things began with the creation by God [issara, or ishvara, skt], or Brahma. I have gone to them and said: "Reverend sirs, is it true that you declare that all things began with the creation by a God, or Brahma?" "Yes", they replied.'

And this god is characterized so:

"That Worshipful Brahma, the Great God, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Organizer, the Protection, the Creator, the Most Perfect Ruler, the Designer and Orderer, the Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be, He by Whom we were created, He is permanent, Constant, Eternal, Unchanging, and He will remain so for ever and ever." DN 24: iii 28

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Individual » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:08 pm

My suggestion for dealing with this Hindu is the same strategy I had a while ago, with some Wiccans: Offer to carry out any magical ritual of his, in which the effects are clearly laid out beforehand, and then empirically observe the results.

"Om linga linga linga linga linga!" wait, nothing's happening. Maybe I need to say it louder. "OMMMM LINGA LINGA LINGA LINGA LINGA LINGA!!!"

Maybe it's the onions in my diet which make me so deluded.

You could also try appealing to the fact that the Flying Spaghetti Monster looks much weirder and has far more appendages than all of the Hindu gods combined (and is therefore more powerful).
The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:04 pm


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby cooran » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:44 pm

{{{{groan}}}}
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:47 pm

I don't understand how quoting from scripture provides any evidence or validation of anything. A Christian or Muslim can go to the bible and quote loads of things, it doesn't mean they are true. Likewise Buddha said many very wise things, but just cause he said them doesn't mean they are true.

That's the beauty of the 4 NT, 8 Fold path, and other key dharma teachings, you can experiment with them and test out their validity. They work when applied, the proof is there.

But when it comes to God, rebirth, etc- the metaphysics of any religion, how can these ever be proven?

I think such beliefs should simply be left alone, for each person to believe as they wish as long as they dont try to impose their beliefs or attack those of others.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:21 am

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:07 am

well, exactly. there are some pretty nasty passages in the Jewish old testament, especially. thus the dangers of literal interpretations and fundamentalism.

My understanding, from discussions with Jewish friends, is that a tradition of interpretation developed in Judiasm, in part because many rabbis and sages felt the old teachings should not be taken literally...

As for God though, i won't debate the issue too much, but there are varying ways that a supreme creative being can be conceptualized and Hinduism is actually a bit more open there, imo, then some other faiths.

God or Brahman is thought of as the ultimate source or creative wisdom which has brought all that exists and is aware into being. God in this view is not watching over or judging us, God is the presence/awareness that resides everywhere, within each of us.

You may not believe this, but how can it be proven wrong?

We have karma, rebirth, dharmakaya, etc in Buddhism. These too provide explanations for how our world works, the forces behind all we see. But how can we know for sure that these exist?

It's a matter of faith...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:19 am


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:40 am

Why would we want to do that, show that the idea of God is not meaningful?

How would you feel if someone tried to convince you that the ideas of karma, rebirth and dharma were not meaningful?

Seems to me these are all ideas addressing the same deep questions: How does reality work, why does the Universe exist, why is life the way it is, why do we suffer?

Where did laws of karma, rebirth, dharma come from? For a Buddhist its not an important question, for a person who believes in God the answer is quite obvious....

And very meaningful.
Last edited by christopher::: on Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:41 am


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:42 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby Nibbida » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:48 am

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:51 am


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:58 am

The God of Kabbalah, Advaita, much like "The Way" of Taoism, is not an Omnipotent being watching over everything from a distance, like the old man in the bible, Tilt. God (in these traditions) is more like Awareness, Love, Wisdom, Creativity... Things go wrong, beings suffer, when not in touch with that wisdom and love, just as we Buddhists know we will suffer when not in touch with (living in tune with) the Dhamma...

For many (not all) Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, God is "The Way" - the Source of all life, inspiration and guide for how to live with generosity, optimism, kindness and compassion. In that sense belief in God serves a meaningful purpose. Millions of people all over the world have been inspired by their faith, they take refuge in their belief in a wise and loving God, just as we take refuge in the dharma.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:24 am


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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

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