The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
So, you would not agree with robertk's highly dismissive and bitingly negative assessment of meditation practice: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=80#p228511 ?
This is what I said in that link:

robertk wrote:It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me choosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
If you think that is dismissive and bitingly negative you maybe don't realize how much I enjoy Tuna sandwiches> :smile:
Damdifino how much you enjoy tuna sandiches. Your initial comment comes across a negative and dismissive, and this comment only adds to the negativity. Maybe you could try writing in a far more straightforward manner.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
So, you would not agree with robertk's highly dismissive and bitingly negative assessment of meditation practice: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15952&start=80#p228511 ?
This is what I said in that link:

robertk wrote:It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me choosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.
If you think that is dismissive and bitingly negative you maybe don't realize how much I enjoy Tuna sandwiches> :smile:
Damdifino how much you enjoy tuna sandiches. Your initial comment comes across a negative and dismissive, and this comment only adds to the negativity. Maybe you could try writing in a far more straightforward manner.
Earlier in the thread I wrote this:
Here is a quote from a popular book by Venerable Gunaratana,Mindfulness in Plain English:

One of the most difficult things to learn is that mindfulness is not dependent on any emotional or mental state.. You don't need to move at a snail's pace to be mindful. You don't even need to be calm. You can be mindful while solving problems in intensive calculus. You can be mindful in the middle of a football scrimmage. You can even be mindful in the midst of a raging fury. Mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness.

I agree with that quote
I don't believe that vipassana/satipatthana is related to posture. I believe that satipatthana can arise while eating a tuna sandwich at Belly Sandwich, or even at Subway. It can also arise while sitting in lotus posture in a jungle.
This is because it is a purely mental phenomena, and unlike samatha development, where sound is a thorn, vipassana can be aware of sound or of unpleasant feeling or pleasant taste. It can even arise "in the midst or a raging fury" or "in the middle or a footall scrimmage"> THis is because "mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness"
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote: Here is a quote from a popular book by Venerable Gunaratana,Mindfulness in Plain English:

One of the most difficult things to learn is that mindfulness is not dependent on any emotional or mental state.. You don't need to move at a snail's pace to be mindful. You don't even need to be calm. You can be mindful while solving problems in intensive calculus. You can be mindful in the middle of a football scrimmage. You can even be mindful in the midst of a raging fury. Mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness.

I agree with that quote
I don't believe that vipassana/satipatthana is related to posture. I believe that satipatthana can arise while eating a tuna sandwich at Belly Sandwich, or even at Subway. It can also arise while sitting in lotus posture in a jungle.
This is because it is a purely mental phenomena, and unlike samatha development, where sound is a thorn, vipassana can be aware of sound or of unpleasant feeling or pleasant taste. It can even arise "in the midst or a raging fury" or "in the middle or a footall scrimmage"> THis is because "mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness"
I wonder if you agree with the full context of this quote in Ven G's book, which is that mindfulness can be deliberately cultivated, and it is a matter of discipline choice that leads to the cultivation of mindfulness. Also, that passage refers to a well cultivated mindfulness. Like passages you have quoted above, this also seems to be out of context in the way you are using it here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

I still don't have the time to engage in much "heavy lifting", but I noticed that two of the sutta quotes offered in support of a mundane interpretation of yoniso manasikara come from the Kalyanamittavagga of the Anguttaranikaya. A kalyanamitta is explicitly defined as an ariyan in the Suttas, later the monks felt the need to introduce the notion of a "kalyana puthujjana" (Patisambidhamagga and the Commentaries) to compensate for the dearth of ariyans in their midst.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa »

pulga wrote:I still don't have the time to engage in much "heavy lifting"
It's cool, I'll wait.

:meditate:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk »

robertk:This is because it is a purely mental phenomena, and unlike samatha development, where sound is a thorn, vipassana can be aware of sound or of unpleasant feeling or pleasant taste. It can even arise "in the midst or a raging fury" or "in the middle or a footall scrimmage"> THis is because "mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness"
I wonder if you agree with the full context of this quote in Ven G's book, which is that mindfulness can be deliberately cultivated, and it is a matter of discipline choice that leads to the cultivation of mindfulness. Also, that passage refers to a well cultivated mindfulness. Like passages you have quoted above, this also seems to be out of context in the way you are using it here.
well lets look at what well cultivated mindfulness is?
do you mean it is something that happens while in a meditation retreat? if so is it a 10 day retreat, or a one month , or three year? say he is in a football scimmage after the retreat, is there a time limit, after the retreat ends, when he no longer has the ability to have mindfulness in the football scrimmage or while in a raging fury
or does it apply to someone who meditates an hour a day? or twice a day?

when this person is in the middle of a football scrimmage what sort of processes arise that give this "discipline choice" that you mention?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:robertk:This is because it is a purely mental phenomena, and unlike samatha development, where sound is a thorn, vipassana can be aware of sound or of unpleasant feeling or pleasant taste. It can even arise "in the midst or a raging fury" or "in the middle or a footall scrimmage"> THis is because "mental and physical activities are no bar to mindfulness"
I wonder if you agree with the full context of this quote in Ven G's book, which is that mindfulness can be deliberately cultivated, and it is a matter of discipline choice that leads to the cultivation of mindfulness. Also, that passage refers to a well cultivated mindfulness. Like passages you have quoted above, this also seems to be out of context in the way you are using it here.
well lets look at what well cultivated mindfulness is?
do you mean it is something that happens while in a meditation retreat? if so is it a 10 day retreat, or a one month , or three year? say he is in a football scimmage after the retreat, is there a time limit, after the retreat ends, when he no longer has the ability to have mindfulness in the football scrimmage or while in a raging fury
or does it apply to someone who meditates an hour a day? or twice a day?

when this person is in the middle of a football scrimmage what sort of processes arise that give this "discipline choice" that you mention?
The fact of the matter is that mindfulness can be deliberately cultivated by a formal meditation practice, which is one of the major points of Bhante G's book, but that is something that KS and her acolytes have denied as having any real value, rejecting any attempt at sitting meditation being lobha or some other negative mental state, and you own comments support the KS point of view. You have taken the Bhante G quote out of its context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:I still don't have the time to engage in much "heavy lifting", but I noticed that two of the sutta quotes offered in support of a mundane interpretation of yoniso manasikara come from the Kalyanamittavagga of the Anguttaranikaya. A kalyanamitta is explicitly defined as an ariyan in the Suttas, later the monks felt the need to introduce the notion of a "kalyana puthujjana" (Patisambidhamagga and the Commentaries) to compensate for the dearth of ariyans in their midst.
And you do not have the time to even quote the two suttas you just mentioned. At this point, I'll stay with the highly educated and experienced bhikkhus who have done the work for which you have no time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote:or does it apply to someone who meditates an hour a day? or twice a day?
From a practical point of view I've found that the more sitting meditation I can do, the more mindful I am able to be.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

tiltbillings wrote:
Several things: the response to dhamma follower concerning having to be awakened to be awakened was an attempt at trying to clarify something she said several times, but -- alas -- she never clarified the point, even after asking her to do so several times.
Dear Tilt,

I thought I was being clear in my answer...Well, probably there are some different ground ideas which give rise to misunderstanding between us on this regard. For example, when i talked about wisdom/understanding, i was referring to the panna cetasika, which is not necessarily ariyan, but just the mental factor which understands correctly. This mental factor can be of intellectual level, i.e having concepts as object, or of the level of direct understanding or insight i.e having paramatha dhammas as object. Thus, when speaking about understanding as being the forerunner factor which cultivates the Path, I didn't mean one had to be awakened to be awakened. What was meant is that without hearing the Buddha's words, there's no way for vipassana to be developed. The wisdom contained in his words conditions the right understanding- first, at an intellectual level- in the hearer. The understanding thus gained can be a condition for further understanding, which at some point, can condition direct understanding.

We usually think that intellectual understanding is one thing, and direct understanding is another, which is totally right. However, we are not inclined to believe that it is the intellectual understanding which conditions direct understanding. This thread is an attempt (at least to me) to demonstrate that it is precisely this intellectual understanding gained from hearing the right dhamma which is the cause of direct understanding.

When we talk about an activity, such as doing meditation, attending dhamma discussions, we actually talk about countless moments of many different kinds of mental states, then not all kinds of mental states occurring during those moments can be said to be the cause of wisdom. By way of paccaya, moments of unwholesomeness can not condition moment of wholesomeness. Only wholesomeness can condition other moments of wholesomeness, and only understanding can condition further understanding.

Another thing: I - or Robertk- have never asserted that understanding can not be developed, or should not be. Of course it should be. But since dhammas don't arise at someone's will, we need to understand what conditions what. Even something we often talk about like "sati"- how much we understand its characteristics? how much we understand the conditions for its arising? Without really understanding what is sati, can we cultivate it? If you agree that everything is merely impersonal processes, then it should follows that understanding is not developed by a self- but by its precise conditions. This understanding is crucial.

When we talk about "deliberate development", I'm afraid that we are making cetana- will- the forerunner of the Path. Of course, language sometime can be an issue. We can not avoid using conventional speak. But does one really understand that it is only conventional, or does one take its meaning literally, that is something I think important to find out.

I don't know if this post is any clearer than my previous ones...But actually I don't find repetition a bad thing anymore, sometime i have to listen to something many many times without knowing what it is about, until one moment it clicks...

Best regards,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Prasadachitta »

It may have been exceedingly exceptional but the Buddha awakened. He had no one to show him the way.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by dhamma follower »

Prasadachitta wrote:It may have been exceedingly exceptional but the Buddha awakened. He had no one to show him the way.
Greeting Prasadachitta,

Indeed, it is exceedingly exceptional, that's why he is called samma sambuddha - the one who has become enlightened without a teacher. You might know that it is by virtue of his exceptional paramis which have been developed for a really looooooooong time, 4 aons and 100.000 kappa at the shortest...However, his understanding has also been developed throughout those time thanks to listening to other Buddhas' teachings. He has met 24 Buddhas since he was predicted to become one, until his own enlightenment. If you are interested in the subject, the book "the perfections leading to enlightenment" by Nina Van Gorkom- Sujin is a very good one. There, we read that in his previous lives,the Boddhisatta who is to become our Buddha Gotama already reached very high level of understanding, along with all other paramis.

Apart from Buddhas, all others are hearers. A Boddhisatta also is a hearer for many lifetimes.

Who are we compared to the qualities he was endowed with?

Brgrds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Who are we compared to the qualities he was endowed with?
Similarly, who are we to make up the qualities and history he was endowed with? Much of what you state about his history and path to enlightenment was not actually said by the Buddha himself and is just hagiography created by others to make the Buddha sound more impressive to those who are impressed by such grandeur.

It would be rather unfortunate if we did not look directly at the Buddha's own teachings, as they were presented, but insisted on filtering them through posthumous hagiography and scholastic frameworks instead.
SN 20.7: Ani Sutta wrote:Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Note
1. Ironically, the Commentary notes that the drum originally could be heard for twelve leagues, but in its final condition couldn't be heard even from behind a curtain.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote: At this point, I'll stay with the highly educated and experienced bhikkhus who have done the work for which you have no time.
I've got a question regarding Ven. Bodhi's introduction to the Sotapattisamyutta in his translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. On pages 1517 and 1518 he refers to the tetrad of the sotapattiyangani as "qualities that must be actualized to attain stream-entry" -- which I'm in full agreement with. But later on page 1520 he writes: "These qualities lead not only to stream-entry but to all the fruits of the path."(my emphasis) -- thus implying that the puthujjana possesses these qualities prior to having actualized them. Does Ven. Bodhi mean to say that the sotapattiyangani are within the domain of the puthujjana? Is it appropriate to attribute the sotapattiyangani to the puthujjana prior to stream-entry?

Any clarification would be welcome.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: At this point, I'll stay with the highly educated and experienced bhikkhus who have done the work for which you have no time.
I've got a question regarding Ven. Bodhi's introduction to the Sotapattisamyutta in his translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. On pages 1517 and 1518 he refers to the tetrad of the sotapattiyangani as "qualities that must be actualized to attain stream-entry" -- which I'm in full agreement with. But later on page 1520 he writes: "These qualities lead not only to stream-entry but to all the fruits of the path."(my emphasis) -- thus implying that the puthujjana possesses these qualities prior to having actualized them. Does Ven. Bodhi mean to say that the sotapattiyangani are within the domain of the puthujjana? Is it appropriate to attribute the sotapattiyangani to the puthujjana prior to stream-entry?

Any clarification would be welcome.
Why don't you put that question him directly. Apparently he is accessible to such enquiries.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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