Reincarnation

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by ancientbuddhism »

These discussions on transmigration are rather circular (all pun intended). I just know I have lived this discussion in the past. But here goes…
porpoise wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
danieLion wrote:Definitions are never accepted by consensus. Definitions are dynamic…
And the dynamic of definitions is contextual. Whereas in the case of paṭiccasamupāda we find its working hypothesis relating to present cognitive processes.
I don't understand your first sentence, could you elaborate?
As for your second sentence, if you mean that the nidanas include both physical and mental dimensions, then I agree.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, a word for word Pāḷi to English translation is clumsy at best. And even an academically precise translation will still often miss the meaning. This is why the context of Dhamma, whether in general (4-NT/8-P) or within a particular sutta, is so important to exegetically unpack that meaning.
danieLion wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
danieLion wrote:Definitions are never accepted by consensus. Definitions are dynamic…
And the dynamic of definitions is contextual. Whereas in the case of paṭiccasamupāda we find its working hypothesis relating to present cognitive processes.
No matter how many links we work with?
With reference to DO, the Tathāgata set the context of Dhamma within the frameworks of both what makes for assumed existence (sakkāyadiṭṭhi of pañcupadānakkhandhā, saḷāyatana, 18 dhātu etc.), and the dynamics of pathways within that toward either mental distress or freedom, as mapped out in paṭiccasamuppāda.

When we look at what the contemplative was supposed to directly notice in praxis, is the theme that the dynamic of rebirth is set when one has craving at sensations (simple version @ SN. 12.44 – Loka Sutta), or, when in at least one example, one is ‘born of ignorant contact’ (avijjāsamphassajena – SN. 22.47) at sensations, thus setting the pathway to dukkha. The pathway to be cultivated toward freedom from dukkha is simply the absence of this ignorant contact and craving. Of course this knowledge and pathway is developed through the straight contemplative models of Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna, which nicely complements the schedules of analysis related to DO.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by Spiny Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, a word for word Pāḷi to English translation is clumsy at best. And even an academically precise translation will still often miss the meaning. This is why the context of Dhamma, whether in general (4-NT/8-P) or within a particular sutta, is so important to exegetically unpack that meaning.
But unpacking meaning is a very subjective process. And while translation is often clumsy, I don't see the rationale for imposing a completely different meaning on what looks like a straightforward piece of translation - see my example above of how "death" is defined in SN12.2.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote: It is physical birth and physical death, but not exactly – it’s the knowledge of physical birth and death.
Or our experience of physical birth, aging and death? Which is currently dukkha because we don't see how things really are?
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SDC
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by SDC »

porpoise wrote:
SDC wrote: It is physical birth and physical death, but not exactly – it’s the knowledge of physical birth and death.
Or our experience of physical birth, aging and death? Which is currently dukkha because we don't see how things really are?
Well you could say experience. With birth, we know it already happened and for aging and death, we know it is going to happen. It is the experience of mortality; the structure of “my” existence. With this knowledge there is dukkha. As if to say, “Hey, there’s this world with all this stuff going on and I’m in it, but at some point I won’t be. This sucks.”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
danieLion
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by danieLion »

porpoise wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, a word for word Pāḷi to English translation is clumsy at best. And even an academically precise translation will still often miss the meaning. This is why the context of Dhamma, whether in general (4-NT/8-P) or within a particular sutta, is so important to exegetically unpack that meaning.
But unpacking meaning is a very subjective process. And while translation is often clumsy, I don't see the rationale for imposing a completely different meaning on what looks like a straightforward piece of translation - see my example above of how "death" is defined in SN12.2.
This sutta does not define DO. It analyzes it.
danieLion
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by danieLion »

Ancient Buddhism. That last post was beatiful, especially the anapanasati, satipatthana tie-in. Thanks much.
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by Spiny Norman »

danieLion wrote:
porpoise wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, a word for word Pāḷi to English translation is clumsy at best. And even an academically precise translation will still often miss the meaning. This is why the context of Dhamma, whether in general (4-NT/8-P) or within a particular sutta, is so important to exegetically unpack that meaning.
But unpacking meaning is a very subjective process. And while translation is often clumsy, I don't see the rationale for imposing a completely different meaning on what looks like a straightforward piece of translation - see my example above of how "death" is defined in SN12.2.
This sutta does not define DO. It analyzes it.
SN12.2 defines the nidanas. I'm saying that it difficult to analyse DO objectively without using the nidana definitions provided.
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danieLion
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by danieLion »

porpoise wrote:But unpacking meaning is a very subjective process. And while translation is often clumsy, I don't see the rationale for imposing a completely different meaning on what looks like a straightforward piece of translation - see my example above of how "death" is defined in SN12.2.
danieLion wrote:This sutta does not define DO. It analyzes it.
porpoise wrote:SN12.2 defines the nidanas. I'm saying that it difficult to analyse DO objectively without using the nidana definitions provided.
How do you define "define"? What do you mean by "objectively"? Where does the sutta say it's defining anything?
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by Spiny Norman »

danieLion wrote:
porpoise wrote:SN12.2 defines the nidanas. I'm saying that it difficult to analyse DO objectively without using the nidana definitions provided.
How do you define "define"? What do you mean by "objectively"? Where does the sutta say it's defining anything?
I'm using "definition" in the usual way, ie a statement that explains the meaning of a term. By analogy, if you want to understand and work with a scientific or mathematical formula then it's important to know how the terms in that formula are defined.

We seem to be bogged down in semantics rather than actually looking at how the nidanas are defined.... :redherring: ?
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danieLion
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by danieLion »

porpoise wrote:
danieLion wrote:
porpoise wrote:SN12.2 defines the nidanas. I'm saying that it difficult to analyse DO objectively without using the nidana definitions provided.
How do you define "define"? What do you mean by "objectively"? Where does the sutta say it's defining anything?
I'm using "definition" in the usual way, ie a statement that explains the meaning of a term. By analogy, if you want to understand and work with a scientific or mathematical formula then it's important to know how the terms in that formula are defined.
"Usual way"? Did you read my posts citing the Stanford Encyclopedia entry on "Definition"? There is no "usual way."

You didn't answer my question about what you mean by "objectively" or my question about where the sutta says it's defining anything.

Is there even one sutta that declares it's defining the nidana?
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Re: Reincarnation

Post by Spiny Norman »

danieLion wrote:
porpoise wrote:I'm using "definition" in the usual way, ie a statement that explains the meaning of a term. By analogy, if you want to understand and work with a scientific or mathematical formula then it's important to know how the terms in that formula are defined.
"Usual way"? Did you read my posts citing the Stanford Encyclopedia entry on "Definition"? There is no "usual way."

You didn't answer my question about what you mean by "objectively" or my question about where the sutta says it's defining anything.

Is there even one sutta that declares it's defining the nidana?
But if we can't agree on the definition of anything then meaningful discussion is impossible. And I don't understand your objection to saying that SN12.2 provides definitions of the nidanas - that is functionally what the sutta is doing.
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