Ajahn Brahm for sale?

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
Actually, your posts is not always that easy to read, and I do my best to read them as they are written. So, then, if I misread your post, what is your point?
well I certainly wasn't saying anything remotely related to this and your opinion of levity, dourness, or clinging.
But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.
you have accused two people with no ground. but heaven forbid anyone engage with the outside world or have an opinion about it.
lets all find a hole and hide from any expectation of conduct and benefit we gain from our livelihood.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

Billymac29 wrote: that was not missed.. I understood and still felt the same way.. One need not participate if one chooses not to... One need not "bid" if one does not want to.. You bid because you want to, not because you have to :)

When all is said and done ajahn's dhamma teachings are still available free of charge at his facility and on the web

;)

May all be well
and the free availability changes the sale how?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

pilgrim wrote:I can't believe the bunch of sour faced prudes we have here.
and how does disagreement with him selling himself make one a sour faced prune, dour or whatever?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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retrofuturist
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Bhikkhu Pesala's earlier post referenced what Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:No Strings Attached
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:The teacher, meanwhile, must make sure not to regard the act of teaching as a repayment of a debt. After all, monks and nuns repay their debt to their lay donors by trying to rid their minds of greed, aversion, and delusion. They are in no way obligated to teach, which means that the act of teaching is a gift free and clear. In addition, the Buddha insisted that the Dhamma be taught without expectation of material reward. When he was once offered a “teacher's fee” for his teaching, he refused to accept it and told the donor to throw it away. He also established the precedent that when a monastic teaches the rewards of generosity, the teaching is given after a gift has been given, not before, so that the stain of hinting won't sully what's said.

All of these principles assume a high level of nobility and restraint on both sides of the equation, which is why people tried to find ways around them even while the Buddha was alive. The origin stories to the monastic discipline — the tales portraying the misbehavior that led the Buddha to formulate rules for the monks and nuns — often tell of monastics whose gift of Dhamma came with strings attached, and of lay people who gladly pulled those strings to get what they wanted out of the monastics: personal favors served with an ingratiating smile. The Buddha's steady persistence in formulating rules to cut these strings shows how determined he was that the principle of Dhamma as a genuinely free gift not be an idle ideal. He wanted it to influence the way people actually behaved.

He never gave an extended explanation of why the act of teaching should always be a gift, but he did state in general terms that when his code of conduct became corrupt over time, that would corrupt the Dhamma as well. And in the case of the etiquette of generosity, this principle has been borne out frequently throughout Buddhist history.

A primary example is recorded in the Apadanas, which scholars believe were added to the Canon after King Asoka's time. The Apadanas discuss the rewards of giving in a way that shows how eager the monks composing them were to receive lavish gifts. They promise that even a small gift will bear fruit as guaranteed arahantship many eons in the future, and that the path from now to then will always be filled with pleasure and prestige. Attainments of special distinction, though, require special donations. Some of these donations bear a symbolic resemblance to the desired distinction — a gift of lighted lamps, for instance, presages clairvoyance — but the preferred gift of distinction was a week's worth of lavish meals for an entire monastery, or at least for the monks who teach.

It's obvious that the monks who composed the Apadanas were giving free rein to their greed, and were eager to tell their listeners what their listeners wanted to hear. The fact that these texts were recorded for posterity shows that the listeners, in fact, were pleased. Thus the teachers and their students, acting in collusion, skewed the culture of dana in the direction of their defilements. In so doing they distorted the Dhamma as well. If gift-giving guarantees Awakening, it supplants the noble eightfold path with the one-fold path of the gift. If the road to Awakening is always prestigious and joyful, the concept of right effort disappears. Yet once these ideas were introduced into the Buddhist tradition, they gained the stamp of authority and have affected Buddhist practice ever since. Throughout Buddhist Asia, people tend to give gifts with an eye to their symbolic promise of future reward; and the list of gifts extolled in the Apadanas reads like a catalog of the gifts placed on altars throughout Buddhist Asia even today.

Which goes to show that once the culture of dana gets distorted, it can distort the practice of Dhamma as a whole for many centuries. So if we're serious about bringing the culture of dana to the West, we should be very careful to ensure that our efforts honor the principles that make dana a genuinely Buddhist practice. This means no longer using the tactics of modern fundraising to encourage generosity among retreatants or Buddhists in general. It also means rethinking the dana talk, for on many counts it fails the test. In pressuring retreatants to give to teachers, it doesn't lead to gladness before giving, and instead sounds like a plea for a tip at the end of a meal. The frequent efforts to pull on the retreatants' heartstrings as a path to their purse strings betray a lack of trust in their thoughtfulness and leave a bad taste. And the entire way dana is handled for teachers doesn't escape the fact that it's payment for services rendered. Whether teachers think about this consciously or not, it pressures them subtly to tell their listeners what they think their listeners want to hear. The Dhamma can't help but suffer as a result.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: and it is a shame you are reading so much into my posts tilt.
Actually, your posts is not always that easy to read, and I do my best to read them as they are written. So, then, if I misread your post, what is your point?
well I certainly wasn't saying anything remotely related to this and your opinion of levity, dourness, or clinging.
But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.
you have accused two people with no ground. but heaven forbid anyone engage with the outside world or have an opinion about it.
lets all find a hole and hide from any expectation of conduct and benefit we gain from our livelihood.
Actually, thank you, you have made my point, again.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

pilgrim wrote:I can't believe the bunch of sour faced prudes we have here.
Image "Naughty bhikkhu."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: well I certainly wasn't saying anything remotely related to this and your opinion of levity, dourness, or clinging.
But: Oh, the inhumanity of it all. Naughty Ven B. Shame, shame, shame and more shame, scandlaizing us dour Buddhists with levity. Heavens to betsy, what are we to do? Maybe get over it, let it go, move on, tend to our own business, look within.
you have accused two people with no ground. but heaven forbid anyone engage with the outside world or have an opinion about it.
lets all find a hole and hide from any expectation of conduct and benefit we gain from our livelihood.
Actually, thank you, you have made my point, again.
and what point is that?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by m0rl0ck »

Some of you all are just hilarious :jumping:

I thought about this at work today and came to the conclusion that while i may enjoy the good humoured cheerfulness of his talks on occasion 7 days of unruffled, cheerful, equanimity would probably drive me up a wall. If i won id have to send him out on a lot of errands or something.
I bet he is like that first thing in the morning too.

EDIT: you think he can cook worth a darn? do windows maybe?
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
and what point is that?
Hmmm. A trick question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

m0rl0ck wrote:Some of you all are just hilarious :jumping:

I thought about this at work today and came to the conclusion that while i may enjoy the good humoured cheerfulness of his talks on occasion 7 days of unruffled, cheerful, equanimity would probably drive me up a wall. If i won id have to send him out on a lot of errands or something.
I bet he is like that first thing in the morning too.

EDIT: you think he can cook worth a darn? do windows maybe?
Yeah, I like Ajahn Brahm but this is my first thought as well - I don't think I could handle a week of that. Part of me wonders how much fun it would be to set up an equanimity obstacle course and see what manner of annoyances he could endure before snapping and slapping me.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by m0rl0ck »

LonesomeYogurt wrote: Yeah, I like Ajahn Brahm but this is my first thought as well - I don't think I could handle a week of that. Part of me wonders how much fun it would be to set up an equanimity obstacle course and see what manner of annoyances he could endure before snapping and slapping me.
:jumping:


I thot something similar, sending him to my job for a week to see if his equanimity gradually eroded.
Im pretty sure that monk baiting is probably heavy karma tho. :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

A better use for this thread rather than the finger wagging is: What to do with a meditation master for a week.

I'd have my own prvt retreat and let him run the schedule.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:I have said as much, if not more than, I should have and my only response to all of this kerfuffle is:

Image
Cuould't you put it down?
tiltbillings wrote: A better use for this thread rather than the finger wagging is:
There is a fair bit of finger wagging go on all around here.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote: Cuould't you put it down?

There is a fair bit of finger wagging go on all around here.
Too much fun finger wagging at the those who think monks should be dour.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote: Cuould't you put it down?

There is a fair bit of finger wagging go on all around here.
Too much fun finger wagging at the those who think monks should be dour.
I don't know if they have to be dour but they do have great symbolic significance (a manifestation of the tripple gem) and are part of a tradition.
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