satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:23 am

so i'm torn on this practice. some teachers teach that you should talk your way through the day, noting "walking" "touching" etcetera. some teach to just watch but to notice things as they arise and fall and to mentally verbalize this process. some teach that you should go through parts of the sutta. particularly notice things like the fetters and aggregates and what not very specifically. and then some teach that you are just to see it all happen with the sutta instructions already solidified in your mind.

so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.

if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?

thoughts?

for those who don't know i have no teacher so i need lots of help, hence all the reverse teaching threads.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:32 am

"doubting" should be noted or noticed just like anything else.

You do lots of doubting about trivialities of technique, but you dont see these thoughts with mindfulness. A thought about practice should be treated like a thought about what you had for lunch, i shouldnt be latched onto and made a big deal of.

As long as you are practicing with some sort of attention, you are practicing in a positive way.

You ask and ask for the 'perfect technique' hoping that if you find the 'special sauce' you will suddenly be free of suffering... nope! You will make progress that way when you stop putting so much weight in and clinging to your thoughts though!

Eventually the suffering of doubt will push you to stop indulging in it, how much suffering that takes is up to you.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby manas » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:20 pm

. :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Dmytro » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:09 pm

Hi Alan,

alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.

if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?


There's no universal way of doing which will be appropriate for anyone in any situation. Even the instructions for finding a freezer in the house would be unique, - what to say of finding an inner peace.

That's why suttas rarely teach doing - instead they teach the methodology - observing what's happening, discriminating what's skilful and what's not, applying right effort through redirecting attention, etc.
Especially when there's no teacher, one has to learn from experience.

Perhaps a text on Five Hindrances will be a good place to start. As explained in Ahara sutta, discrimination of skilful and unskilful behavior helps to overcome doubt:

"There are things which are wholesome or unwholesome, blameless or blameworthy, noble or low, and (other) contrasts of dark and bright; frequently giving wise attention to them — that is the denourishing of the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen."

"In addition, the following are helpful in conquering Doubt:

Reflection, of the factors of absorption (jhananga);"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#doubt
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:58 am

"That's why suttas rarely teach doing - instead they teach the methodology - observing what's happening, discriminating what's skilful and what's not, applying right effort through redirecting attention"

Also one of the main ways they teach is by suggesting which states are wholesome and which are unwholesome. With that knowledge you can basically aspire moment to moment in the direction of the wholesome... using whatever techniques you can.

Main point: it isn't all just finding the 'perfect technique.'
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby pegembara » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:23 am

Meditation is the means to an end as in finger pointing to the moon; not the moon. As long as you are seeing the 3 characteristics, you are doing fine.

“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374

“Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“The ear is impermanent… The nose is impermanent… The tongue is impermanent… The body is impermanent… The mind is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has revulsion towards the eye, has revulsion towards the ear, has revulsion towards the nose, has revulsion towards the tongue, has revulsion towards the body, has revulsion towards the mind. Having revulsion, he becomes dispassionate; Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there is the knowledge ‘It is liberated.’ He knows ‘Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what is to be done has been done, there is nothing more beyond this.”

~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Saḷāyatanavagga, Saḷāyatanasaṃyutta, Sutta 1

“For one who dwells not overcome by lust, unfettered, undeluded, contemplating danger, the five aggregates subject to clinging go towards future diminution. And his craving, which leads to renewed existence, which is accompanied by delight and lust, which finds delight here and there, is abandoned. His bodily woes are abandoned, his mental woes are abandoned, his bodily torments are abandoned, his mental torments are abandoned, his bodily fevers are abandoned, his mental fevers are abandoned, and he experiences bodily and mental pleasure.

~ Majjhima-Nikāya, Sutta 149
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:06 am

alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.
if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?


I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:57 pm

ohnofabrications wrote:"doubting" should be noted or noticed just like anything else.

You do lots of doubting about trivialities of technique, but you dont see these thoughts with mindfulness. A thought about practice should be treated like a thought about what you had for lunch, i shouldnt be latched onto and made a big deal of.

As long as you are practicing with some sort of attention, you are practicing in a positive way.

You ask and ask for the 'perfect technique' hoping that if you find the 'special sauce' you will suddenly be free of suffering... nope! You will make progress that way when you stop putting so much weight in and clinging to your thoughts though!

Eventually the suffering of doubt will push you to stop indulging in it, how much suffering that takes is up to you.


you are right, i do doubt. i'm not looking for the special sauce though, just avoiding the poisoned sauce! if i am practicing utterly incorrectly i could waste my life. so i look here for critique mostly. i have been doing the same practice for many years and i like to keep on top of it and make sure it's in accord with the dhamma. i'm not jumping around, it's been satipatthana and jhana for five years or so now, before that it was general mindfulness and incorrect sitting meditation (anapanasati with nothing but getting the mind blank and watching the breath, just a waste of time.) for six years or so. then i found the pali canon and have been having great progress but being that the sutta language is a little vague i always need some explanation and i get a lot of mixed answers which unfortunately perpetuates the problem while also giving me lots of good info. it's tough going it alone.
Last edited by alan... on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:02 pm

porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.
if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?


I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".


that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:03 pm

pegembara wrote:Meditation is the means to an end as in finger pointing to the moon; not the moon. As long as you are seeing the 3 characteristics, you are doing fine.

“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374

“Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“The ear is impermanent… The nose is impermanent… The tongue is impermanent… The body is impermanent… The mind is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has revulsion towards the eye, has revulsion towards the ear, has revulsion towards the nose, has revulsion towards the tongue, has revulsion towards the body, has revulsion towards the mind. Having revulsion, he becomes dispassionate; Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there is the knowledge ‘It is liberated.’ He knows ‘Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what is to be done has been done, there is nothing more beyond this.”

~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Saḷāyatanavagga, Saḷāyatanasaṃyutta, Sutta 1

“For one who dwells not overcome by lust, unfettered, undeluded, contemplating danger, the five aggregates subject to clinging go towards future diminution. And his craving, which leads to renewed existence, which is accompanied by delight and lust, which finds delight here and there, is abandoned. His bodily woes are abandoned, his mental woes are abandoned, his bodily torments are abandoned, his mental torments are abandoned, his bodily fevers are abandoned, his mental fevers are abandoned, and he experiences bodily and mental pleasure.

~ Majjhima-Nikāya, Sutta 149


great quotes, thanks!
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:04 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Alan,

alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.

if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?


There's no universal way of doing which will be appropriate for anyone in any situation. Even the instructions for finding a freezer in the house would be unique, - what to say of finding an inner peace.

That's why suttas rarely teach doing - instead they teach the methodology - observing what's happening, discriminating what's skilful and what's not, applying right effort through redirecting attention, etc.
Especially when there's no teacher, one has to learn from experience.

Perhaps a text on Five Hindrances will be a good place to start. As explained in Ahara sutta, discrimination of skilful and unskilful behavior helps to overcome doubt:

"There are things which are wholesome or unwholesome, blameless or blameworthy, noble or low, and (other) contrasts of dark and bright; frequently giving wise attention to them — that is the denourishing of the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen."

"In addition, the following are helpful in conquering Doubt:

Reflection, of the factors of absorption (jhananga);"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#doubt



thank you much!
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Mojo » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 am

Have you looked at the book The Method of No Method by Sheng Yen? Its about the Chan practice of Silent Illumination. I personally think it might come close to what you are looking for. Its not quite the same as shikantaza, though Dogen was influenced by it.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:24 am

Mojo wrote:Have you looked at the book The Method of No Method by Sheng Yen? Its about the Chan practice of Silent Illumination. I personally think it might come close to what you are looking for. Its not quite the same as shikantaza, though Dogen was influenced by it.


own it. wonderful book! this idea is actually the result of my reading of "classics of buddhism and zen" by thomas cleary. it teaches an array of similar ideas and techniques.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Sylvester » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:54 am

For those interested in what textual criticism turned up on this subject of thinking and satipatthana -

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10583&p=166604&hilit=+variant#p166557

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2266&p=197669&hilit=+variant#p197641

In short, looking at 4 different Pali collections of MN 125, they are evenly split between 2 groups that say -

1. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with the body, feelings, mind and states; versus
2. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with kaama/kaamaa.

Decisions, decisions. Which reading should we choose?
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:00 am

alan... wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:"doubting" should be noted or noticed just like anything else.

You do lots of doubting about trivialities of technique, but you dont see these thoughts with mindfulness. A thought about practice should be treated like a thought about what you had for lunch, i shouldnt be latched onto and made a big deal of.

As long as you are practicing with some sort of attention, you are practicing in a positive way.

You ask and ask for the 'perfect technique' hoping that if you find the 'special sauce' you will suddenly be free of suffering... nope! You will make progress that way when you stop putting so much weight in and clinging to your thoughts though!

Eventually the suffering of doubt will push you to stop indulging in it, how much suffering that takes is up to you.


you are right, i do doubt. i'm not looking for the special sauce though, just avoiding the poisoned sauce! if i am practicing utterly incorrectly i could waste my life. so i look here for critique mostly. i have been doing the same practice for many years and i like to keep on top of it and make sure it's in accord with the dhamma. i'm not jumping around, it's been satipatthana and jhana for five years or so now, before that it was general mindfulness and incorrect sitting meditation (anapanasati with nothing but getting the mind blank and watching the breath, just a waste of time.) for six years or so. then i found the pali canon and have been having great progress but being that the sutta language is a little vague i always need some explanation and i get a lot of mixed answers which unfortunately perpetuates the problem while also giving me lots of good info. it's tough going it alone.


Alan, there will continue to be mixed answers. What is the ideal outcome of these questions? People will give answers and they will sound nice and they will make sense from that persons point of view. You will take up that new conceptual framework and spend some time excited and thinking about how good it is. You will then run into difficulty and instead of facing the difficulty head on you will avoid it by indulging in doubt.

People will be quite willing to play this game with you because convincing you of their views will help them continue to avoid their defilements and run away into doubt and views.

If you find it necessary, pick a system and stick to it. Pick Goenka and stick to it, pick mahasi and stick to it, pick shikantaza and stick to it, pick mahasati body-awareness and stick to it. Or use whatever combination of techniques or techniques you make up yourself and improvise. As long as you are creating mental calm and singleness and investigating that which interrupts it you are wearing down the defilements. Aim for a state of complete equanimity and awareness with whatever you are doing, then make it effortless, in investigating that which causes it to be effortful you will encounter and conquer your beliefs about the cling-worthiness of things. You won't get stuck in wrong concentration as long as you don't consider something which takes effort to be the end goal.

It's hard to practice in a truly unbeneficial way, even the people who get stuck in some form of wrong concentration (i.e. concentration which is fabricated as an end in and of itself) such as Ajahn maha bua or thate (according to their reports) are able to make fast progress when they see the drawbacks of their mistakes. The longer they made that mistake (i've heard ajahn thate made it for 12 years, maha bua for 5) the more entirely beyond that mistake they will be once they wake up.

Anapanasati with nothing but getting the mind blank and watching the breath? Wow, nice :o ! If you can do that please master it. Having mastered it observe what suffering remains.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:05 am

Sylvester wrote:For those interested in what textual criticism turned up on this subject of thinking and satipatthana -

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10583&p=166604&hilit=+variant#p166557

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2266&p=197669&hilit=+variant#p197641

In short, looking at 4 different Pali collections of MN 125, they are evenly split between 2 groups that say -

1. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with the body, feelings, mind and states; versus
2. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with kaama/kaamaa.

Decisions, decisions. Which reading should we choose?


wow. this comes from a translation of two different recensions of the tipitaka or differences from different suttas on the same topics or what?
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:19 am

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.
if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?


I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".


that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?


I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby IanAnd » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:09 pm

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".


that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?

I second porpoise's main premise that the four establishments of mindfulness is perhaps the best framework for developing the gradual path toward awakening through mindfulness. However, one should not eliminate the perception of vedana from the mix as it will help demonstrate depending co-arising when one is working at eliminating unwholesome reactions/responses from one's mental processes. Recognizing the origin of the unwholesome reaction, if it happens at all, happens after the feeling (vedana) quality has been noticed and recorded by the mind. Then, you KNOW the origin of that mental state and are therefore able to take steps to amend it if necessary.

As for the labeling thing, what matters most in this instance is mental recognition (or sanna) of whatever phenomenon one is observing/perceiving mindfully. Without that recognition (which occurs in a discrete moment in time) the mind will not necessarily take note of it and will forget it. If it helps to mentally use single words to make that recognition stick, then do so. Otherwise, one can using "mental intent" take "note," so to speak, without mentally verbalizing a descriptive word. What matters is the action of intentionally stopping to recognize the phenomenon, taking a moment for it to register in the mind.

In other words, "do as you see fit" with regard to which ever method works best for you. Make sense?
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:56 am

porpoise wrote:
I think it depends where you are with your practice of mindfulness. And there are other options, some people return to the breath at regular intervals or use a mantra. If I'm outside I tend to use physical sensations like wind on my face. Probably it's about being creative and finding what works.


interesting. i find i'm always stuck between liberal ideas and literal "this is the one and only interpretation and method that works" ideas. i like your thinking, but i also wonder about the specificity of the suttas. then again, they are broadly written in many ways as well, hence all the perceived need for interpretation.
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 am

IanAnd wrote:
alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:I find that the 4 foundations of mindfulness are a useful framework for developing mindfulness, sometimes I simplify them to just "body" and "mind". I also find that simple noting ( labelling ) is a helpful support, I generally use single words like "thinking" or "walking".


that's what i wonder though, if i don't label anything am i still getting the benefit?

I second porpoise's main premise that the four establishments of mindfulness is perhaps the best framework for developing the gradual path toward awakening through mindfulness. However, one should not eliminate the perception of vedana from the mix as it will help demonstrate depending co-arising when one is working at eliminating unwholesome reactions/responses from one's mental processes. Recognizing the origin of the unwholesome reaction, if it happens at all, happens after the feeling (vedana) quality has been noticed and recorded by the mind. Then, you KNOW the origin of that mental state and are therefore able to take steps to amend it if necessary.

As for the labeling thing, what matters most in this instance is mental recognition (or sanna) of whatever phenomenon one is observing/perceiving mindfully. Without that recognition (which occurs in a discrete moment in time) the mind will not necessarily take note of it and will forget it. If it helps to mentally use single words to make that recognition stick, then do so. Otherwise, one can using "mental intent" take "note," so to speak, without mentally verbalizing a descriptive word. What matters is the action of intentionally stopping to recognize the phenomenon, taking a moment for it to register in the mind.

In other words, "do as you see fit" with regard to which ever method works best for you. Make sense?


certainly. good advice, thank you.
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