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satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought - Dhamma Wheel

satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
alan...
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satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:23 am

so i'm torn on this practice. some teachers teach that you should talk your way through the day, noting "walking" "touching" etcetera. some teach to just watch but to notice things as they arise and fall and to mentally verbalize this process. some teach that you should go through parts of the sutta. particularly notice things like the fetters and aggregates and what not very specifically. and then some teach that you are just to see it all happen with the sutta instructions already solidified in your mind.

so what i'm thinking now is perhaps i just use very deep mindfulness and stay with whatever i'm doing 100% at all times. this will allow me to be totally mindful, i will certainly notice the rise and fall of things, and it will also help destroy grasping at ideas as, when i'm noting and thinking, i start to theorize and come up with ideas. instead i'll just be free.

if i do it this way is it still satipatthana?

thoughts?

for those who don't know i have no teacher so i need lots of help, hence all the reverse teaching threads.

ohnofabrications
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:32 am

"doubting" should be noted or noticed just like anything else.

You do lots of doubting about trivialities of technique, but you dont see these thoughts with mindfulness. A thought about practice should be treated like a thought about what you had for lunch, i shouldnt be latched onto and made a big deal of.

As long as you are practicing with some sort of attention, you are practicing in a positive way.

You ask and ask for the 'perfect technique' hoping that if you find the 'special sauce' you will suddenly be free of suffering... nope! You will make progress that way when you stop putting so much weight in and clinging to your thoughts though!

Eventually the suffering of doubt will push you to stop indulging in it, how much suffering that takes is up to you.

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manas
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby manas » Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:20 pm

. :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Dmytro
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Dmytro » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:09 pm



ohnofabrications
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:58 am

"That's why suttas rarely teach doing - instead they teach the methodology - observing what's happening, discriminating what's skilful and what's not, applying right effort through redirecting attention"

Also one of the main ways they teach is by suggesting which states are wholesome and which are unwholesome. With that knowledge you can basically aspire moment to moment in the direction of the wholesome... using whatever techniques you can.

Main point: it isn't all just finding the 'perfect technique.'

pegembara
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby pegembara » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:23 am

Meditation is the means to an end as in finger pointing to the moon; not the moon. As long as you are seeing the 3 characteristics, you are doing fine.

“The monk who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind, who comprehends the Dhamma with insight, in him there arise a delight that transcends all human delights.

“Whenever he sees with insight the rise and fall of the aggregates, he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless.”

~ Dhammapada 373-374

“Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“The ear is impermanent… The nose is impermanent… The tongue is impermanent… The body is impermanent… The mind is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is non-self. What is non-self should be seen with right wisdom as it really is thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple has revulsion towards the eye, has revulsion towards the ear, has revulsion towards the nose, has revulsion towards the tongue, has revulsion towards the body, has revulsion towards the mind. Having revulsion, he becomes dispassionate; Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there is the knowledge ‘It is liberated.’ He knows ‘Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what is to be done has been done, there is nothing more beyond this.”

~ Saṃyutta-Nikāya, Saḷāyatanavagga, Saḷāyatanasaṃyutta, Sutta 1

“For one who dwells not overcome by lust, unfettered, undeluded, contemplating danger, the five aggregates subject to clinging go towards future diminution. And his craving, which leads to renewed existence, which is accompanied by delight and lust, which finds delight here and there, is abandoned. His bodily woes are abandoned, his mental woes are abandoned, his bodily torments are abandoned, his mental torments are abandoned, his bodily fevers are abandoned, his mental fevers are abandoned, and he experiences bodily and mental pleasure.

~ Majjhima-Nikāya, Sutta 149
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:06 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:57 pm

Last edited by alan... on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:02 pm


alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:03 pm


alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:04 pm


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Mojo
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Mojo » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:56 am

Have you looked at the book The Method of No Method by Sheng Yen? Its about the Chan practice of Silent Illumination. I personally think it might come close to what you are looking for. Its not quite the same as shikantaza, though Dogen was influenced by it.

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:24 am


Sylvester
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Sylvester » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:54 am

For those interested in what textual criticism turned up on this subject of thinking and satipatthana -

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10583&p=166604&hilit=+variant#p166557

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2266&p=197669&hilit=+variant#p197641

In short, looking at 4 different Pali collections of MN 125, they are evenly split between 2 groups that say -

1. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with the body, feelings, mind and states; versus
2. contemplate the 4 satipatthanas, but do not think thoughts connected with kaama/kaamaa.

Decisions, decisions. Which reading should we choose?

ohnofabrications
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby ohnofabrications » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:00 am


alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:05 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:19 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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IanAnd
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby IanAnd » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:09 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:56 am


alan...
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Re: satipatthana with virtually zero discursive thought

Postby alan... » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:57 am



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