I finally paid off my debts...

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
yawares
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby yawares » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:42 pm


Mawkish1983
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:51 pm

Well done for the clearing of the debts! :)

householder
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby householder » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:22 am

Congratulations to both posters on clearing the debts!

Now, I was in the same position last year - finished my contract, still had a student loan (that's a whole other point of debate) and was going to take the trip/travel/pilgrimage before ordaining.

Went to WPN and a few other monasteries in Thailand, spent plenty of time with monks, bent lots of monastic ears and got some great advice for ordination. Speaking of which, nearly all of them said not to use such a trip to go 'monastery shopping' - you'll never find the perfect place.

Then I went to Burma. Thanks to long-standing family connections and my inability to say no to the chance to meet new people, I'm now living and working here because the nature of the country in this period of huge transition and watching international reactions and actions has utterly gripped my curiosity and interest. Every day here is an exercise in awareness, patience, understanding, empathy and development of my sila and metta, which is very hard to do sometimes. It's also the opportunity to witness and experience types of dukkha in myself and others that I never knew possible (the dukkha arising from no electricity when the temperature is 39c, water that runs brown and showers that leave you dirtier than when you stepped into them, combined with a stomach bug from eating badly prepared food and uncertainty as to whether immigration might one day find a 'problem' in your paperwork - makes first world dukkha look desirable by comparison but still doesn't compare with the myriad dukkha of even greater intensity endured by locals on a regular basis, such as having enough money to eat at all etc.).

I sure as hell wouldn't ordain here (Western Sangha for me), but I'm currently content as a lay person here and the experiences, challenges and opportunities for development of my mind and practice that life here brings. As and when that changes, I shall resume my path towards monasticism. Ironically, I can't do meditation retreats here on my current visa.

Has this diminished my desire to ordain? Kind of - it has certainly taken the self-imposed pressure and intensity off that would have likely caused me problems had I decided to skip the trip and ordain because I felt there was no other way to spend my life in a way that was conducive to meaningful practice, within the exceptionally narrow sphere that was my 'life'. You can bet that, as and when I do decide to ordain, I won't be as insufferable! I've let myself relax.

So definitely take the trip, and also remember that, as your life circumstances change and your experience and access to parts of the world you could only ever imagine starts to take shape, you may find your desire to ordain will be tempered with your interaction with the world and others around you in a way that remains skillful, beneficial and not self-indulgent. You will have different challenges and learn different lessons compared to life in a monastery as an anagarika/bhikku, of which you will form your own view as to the utility of these lessons in the overall 'big picture'.

Therefore, my advice would be that you take the trip with the full intention of ordaining, but don't try and live or act like a monk whilst you're travelling. Whilst that doesn't mean indulging in hedonistic sprees such that certain demographics of traveller are notorious for in this part of the world (I didn't and had no desire to and still had a wonderful time), do allow yourself permission to take advantage of opportunities to meet new people, deviate from your itinerary, travel to places you hadn't planned to go to and do things that don't center around Buddhism, monasteries or the Sangha. Personally I had a nice blend and had a wonderful time, I have a great distance friendship with the Luang Por in the UK who was (may still well be) going to be my Preceptor and have Sangha friends locally who love meeting up with me and discussing dhamma as well as practicing their English, as well as a busy and fulfilling lay life. I'm pretty content right now.

Finally if, like me, you do end up on 'extended travel' don't see that as an abandonment of monastic aspirations and - with it - all that you stood for and held dear. Instead, see all this as part of the (sometimes winding) path.

Metta!

User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 2873
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Mr Man » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:37 am


User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby James the Giant » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:10 pm

Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

householder
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby householder » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:31 am

NP. If I can answer any more questions please drop me a PM. :D

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:05 am

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby manas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:04 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby manas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:21 am

Q: All this talk about ordaining has me thinking about my own debts also. I have a question. In Australia, we are not required to pay back our 'student loan debt' until we earn over a certain amount of income a year, I think it is around 40 000 a year. The problem is that, I don't earn that much, and if things continue as they have for years, I might never earn that much. (I'm qualified in music only, which isn't exactly conducive to wealth.) So I wonder, one could argue that since they don't expect any repayments unless I earn above a certain amount, then not earning that amount, am I regarded as indebted, or not? (in a way that would prevent me from ordaining in a few years, when my children have grown up)?
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:39 am

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby manas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:05 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:24 am

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


User avatar
Śūnyatā
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:15 pm
Location: Śūnyatā

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Śūnyatā » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:42 am

Pardon the uneducated question here: Why must one pay off one's debts before choosing to ordain?

With gratitude :
Sun
Live in joy, In love, Even among those who hate. Live in joy, In health, Even among the afflicted. Live in joy, In peace, Even among the troubled. Look within. Be still. — Dhammapada

Being a human being is not an end in itself. It’s only a transition. It can never be a perfect state in itself. It’s merely a convention. — Luang Por Sumedho

Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing. — Euripides

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Śūnyatā
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:15 pm
Location: Śūnyatā

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Śūnyatā » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:04 am

Live in joy, In love, Even among those who hate. Live in joy, In health, Even among the afflicted. Live in joy, In peace, Even among the troubled. Look within. Be still. — Dhammapada

Being a human being is not an end in itself. It’s only a transition. It can never be a perfect state in itself. It’s merely a convention. — Luang Por Sumedho

Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing. — Euripides

User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby James the Giant » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:28 am

I have a Catholic Monk friend, and he said the church pays off all the debts of a new monk.
That's how wealthy the Catholic church is! Mind you, not many people become monks these days in the Catholic order.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

User avatar
manas
Posts: 2251
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby manas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:18 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

plwk
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:14 am

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby plwk » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:19 am


User avatar
kizma
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:40 am
Location: Île Perrot, Québec
Contact:

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby kizma » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:54 pm

Congratulations to both of you!

This is very inspiring, as I am also working towards paying my debts with the goal of ordaining.

User avatar
Beautiful Breath
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 10:25 am
Location: South West England, UK
Contact:

Re: I finally paid off my debts...

Postby Beautiful Breath » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:33 pm

Have a thought for those of us who - for reasons rendering - are in a position that dictates we will never be able to pay off our debts. Means ordaining into a Theravadin Tradition impossible.

BB...


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine