MN 39 similes

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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manas
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by manas »

alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal.
There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."
I find these similes very helpful to reflect on in practice. I note that there are decreasing levels of 'activity' as we progress through. In the first, there's a man kneading moistened bath powder. Kneading, just as with dough, is an active process, there is some movement involved. In the second, there's a lake fed from a spring welling up from below. Still some movement, but instead of a man acting on a ball of moist powder, the movement wells up from within the lake itself - to my mind, there's less 'activity' here. In the third, the lotuses, which being plants don't move so much, are permeated by cool waters. So now it's not so much activity, rather it's saturation. And in the fourth, all the water similes are gone, and we have a man again, only this time he is very still, and covered head to foot with a white cloth - clean, pure, and touching the entire body.

Anyway, unfortunately I've only had fleeting brushes with the first, but from what I can surmise thus far, from my humble experience, these similes can be used as a guide for what we ought to be doing and feeling. I find it helpful to compare what we read here with other suttas also, such as the satipatthana sutta and the kayagatasati suttas especially, because by getting a few different similes and points of observation of the practice, we can begin to see how really they all fit together, and are part of one teaching only, and only appear to vary or be different. Can the mind cleansed of the five hindrances encompass this entire body? I believe so. I've found that even the mind with the hindrances only weakened, a mind 'only halfway there' so to speak, is already capable of things that the ordinary, discontented, distracted mind is not. So I extrapolate that when I'm able to one day totally cleanse out those nasty hindrances, the mind will be even more fit, flexible and capable. I believe that with good instructions and guides (something I've been blessed with) and consistent and regular, daily effort (this needs more work in my case) we can all progress through the levels of jhana, and gain the insights and benefits thereof. May it be so.

_/I\_
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

Why would the Buddha be so misleading with his fourth jhana simile?

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.
Hi pb

I'm not sure I understand your point, and I'm therefore unsure if your mileage lies in the first "body" (permeated with pure, bright awareness) or the second "body" (covered by the white cloth). This is what I think, not only of the 4th Jhana simile, but of the entire series of Jhana similes.

The point to note is the sutta's use of seyyathāpi (just as), the occurence of which in any sutta is to show that what follows is a simile. This seyyathāpi prefaces the following comparisons -

1. Suffusion of the BODY with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion is analogous to the bath soap being suffused with moisture;
2. Suffusion of the BODY with rapture and pleasure born of concentration is analogous to the lake with the internal spring;
3. Suffusion of the BODY with pleasure divested of pleasure is analogous to lotusses soaking in water;
4. Pervasion of the BODY with pure bright mind is analogous to a body covered with a white cloth.

I take each of and every occurence of the "BODY " above to refer to the same phenomenon. I could also take each and every one of the above "BODY" to be the same "body" that experiences (paṭisaṃvedeti) pleasure in 3rd Jhana (assuming I disagree with Warder). I also take it as implied in the similes that the "BODY" is feeling/experiencing those phenomena that are the hallmarks of each jhana. That much is obvious, given that the pericope uses the adjective na apphuṭa (not unpervaded) to indicate that the "BODY" definitely feels these states.

As for the "body" acting as the analogy in the 4th formula, I take it as being simply an analogy and not identical with the "BODY" it is being compared with.

So, what does "BODY" mean? If AN 9.37 and the standard vivicceva kāmehi pericope exclude awareness of the physical body in jhana, why interpret "BODY" to mean the physical body? As given in my earlier post, Pali is replete with other "bodies", both literally and idiomatically. What sort of "body" could possibly be drenched, steeped, filled or pervaded with states that make that "body" feel (paṭisaṃvedeti) those 4 experiences? To me, it's pretty clear that "body" is used to mean the entirety of the Aggregates or the experience in jhana. It's not simply a situation where one interprets the similes as indicating that the "mind is aware of the body". This flies in the face of the fact that the similes are painting a picture of the hedonic and affective tones of the jhanas being experienced by the "body". The 4th jhana "body" simile might seem to break from the series' focus on feelings, but it is just as easy to read the "pure bright mind" (parisuddhena cetasā pariyodātena) as the shortform for what was described in more words earlier, ie "neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity". This brings the simile back to the focus on feelings, both hedonic and affective.

If you feel that AN 9.37 should perhaps be translated or interpreted to mean that the jhanas come with body awareness, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the same.
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Nyana »

alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?
As you suggest, the same passages occur in DN 2. A relevant section:
  • He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
The commentary explains these phrases as follows:
  • “This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. “He drenches:” he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. “Steeps:” to flow all over. “Fills:” like filling a bellows with air. “Permeates:” to touch all over.

    “His whole body:” in this monk’s body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.
This accords well with the Vimuttimagga:
  • Just as the bath-powder when inside and outside saturated with moisture, adheres and does not scatter, so the body of the meditator in the first jhāna is permeated with joy and pleasure from top to bottom, from the skullcap to the feet and from the feet to the skullcap, skin and hair, inside and outside. And he dwells without falling back. Thus he dwells like a Brahma god.

    [Q.] Joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) are said to be formless phenomena (arūpa-dhamma). How then can they stay permeating the body?

    [A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name has joy, form also has joy. If name has pleasure, form also has pleasure.

    Again, form born from joy causes tranquility of body, and when the entire body is tranquilized there is pleasure due to the tranquility of form. Therefore there is no contradiction.
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Polar Bear »

Hi Sylvester,

That sutta (AN 9.37) doesn't even mention jhana, it's talking about the formless attainments (or at least that's how it read for me, if you care to argue otherwise I'd be interested to hear it). Also, what do you make of the kayagatasati sutta which is explicitly about mindfulness of the physical body and talks about the 4 jhanas in connection with that?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Samma »

I suppose the question is essential what is meant by experiencing the whole body (sabbakāaya patisamvedi) in step 3 of anapanasati.

As polarbuddha mentions above, contemplation on the body (kayanupassana) seems to be predominately physical body. Recognize the 6 contemplations having to do with body as:
1) anapanasati, 2) discern postures, 3) discern actions, 4) 32 parts of body, 5) 4elements, 6) impurities/decay
If not physical-body then why talk about all this related physicality?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can find Ajahn Brahm's interpretations of the 4similies in his book The Jhanas, as relating to mental-body. Here is Ajahn Thanissaro:
the similes for the jhanas, which are attained through the sixteen steps, repeatedly mention a full-body awareness. If the mind were forced exclusively into a single point, it wouldn’t be able to spread feelings of rapture or pleasure throughout the entire body in the first three jhanas, or to fill the body with a clear bright awareness in the fourth.

One response to this last argument is that the word “body” in the similes for jhana doesn’t mean the physical body, because a person in jhana has to be
oblivious to the physical body. Instead, “body” is meant metaphorically as a term for the “body” of the mind.

Putting aside the question of why someone with the Buddha’s teaching skills would use terms in such a potentially confusing way in his basic meditation
instructions, we can simply note that in MN 119 he gives the similes for the jhanas immediately after his discussion of six ways of focusing on the physical
body. As in the case of steps 3 and 4 in breath meditation, if he had meant “body” to mean “physical body” in one context, and “mind body” in the
discussion immediately following it, he would have signaled that he was redefining his terms. But again he doesn’t.

So unless we want to assume that the Buddha was careless or devious in his meditation instructions, it seems best to interpret “body” as meaning “physical
body” in all of these contexts, and to interpret “entire body” in step 3 as referring to the entire physical body as sensed from within.
(Right Mindfulness p.90)
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manas
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by manas »

Samma wrote:I suppose the question is essential what is meant by experiencing the whole body (sabbakāaya patisamvedi) in step 3 of anapanasati.

As polarbuddha mentions above, contemplation on the body (kayanupassana) seems to be predominately physical body. Recognize the 6 contemplations having to do with body as:
1) anapanasati, 2) discern postures, 3) discern actions, 4) 32 parts of body, 5) 4elements, 6) impurities/decay
If not physical-body then why talk about all this related physicality?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can find Ajahn Brahm's interpretations of the 4similies in his book The Jhanas, as relating to mental-body. Here is Ajahn Thanissaro:
the similes for the jhanas, which are attained through the sixteen steps, repeatedly mention a full-body awareness. If the mind were forced exclusively into a single point, it wouldn’t be able to spread feelings of rapture or pleasure throughout the entire body in the first three jhanas, or to fill the body with a clear bright awareness in the fourth.

One response to this last argument is that the word “body” in the similes for jhana doesn’t mean the physical body, because a person in jhana has to be
oblivious to the physical body. Instead, “body” is meant metaphorically as a term for the “body” of the mind.

Putting aside the question of why someone with the Buddha’s teaching skills would use terms in such a potentially confusing way in his basic meditation
instructions, we can simply note that in MN 119 he gives the similes for the jhanas immediately after his discussion of six ways of focusing on the physical
body. As in the case of steps 3 and 4 in breath meditation, if he had meant “body” to mean “physical body” in one context, and “mind body” in the
discussion immediately following it, he would have signaled that he was redefining his terms. But again he doesn’t.

So unless we want to assume that the Buddha was careless or devious in his meditation instructions, it seems best to interpret “body” as meaning “physical
body” in all of these contexts, and to interpret “entire body” in step 3 as referring to the entire physical body as sensed from within.
(Right Mindfulness p.90)
Well said.

By placing or pouring awareness right in to this body of four elements, not allowing the awareness to stray outside this form of ours (the ball of powder is saturated but 'does not drip'), it isn't as if mind along with it's image-making capacity is going to cease functioning. Mind and body depend and rest on each other. When focussing on this material body the 'mental body' is fully involved anyway, or we would not be perceiving anything! So even if fully immersing mindfulness into this body sitting here, we are actually working with the entire mind-body complex; we won't 'miss out' on working with the mind as well.

If, however, we leave the physical body in our meditation, and focus exclusively on mental phenomena, we will be missing something: the opportunity to penetrate with discernment a huge source of attachment for us, that is, this physical body of ours that we clean, feed, care for and decorate so much, not properly seeing it as intrinsically asubha, due to our normally clouded vision.

(That's how I understand it, and how I've experienced it, but I could be wrong. But I thought I'd share in this discussion.)
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by daverupa »

Sylvester wrote:Can the "body" as a sense faculty establish contact with anything other than tactility?
It doesn't seem to be so; but perhaps body in the jhana metaphors isn't strictly the body-faculty?
SN 48.42 wrote:..."Brahmin, these five faculties have different domains, different resorts; they do not experience each others' resort and domain. What five? The eye... ear... nose... tongue... body faculty. Now, brahmin, these five faculties have different domains, different resorts, not experiencing each others' resort and domain - they take recourse in the mind, and the mind experiences their resort and domain."
Perhaps the mind infuses these resorts and domains, otherwise a 'body' of percepts? Perhaps this sort of attitude is also exemplified in brahmavihara pervasion?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

polarbuddha101 wrote: That sutta (AN 9.37) doesn't even mention jhana, it's talking about the formless attainments (or at least that's how it read for me, if you care to argue otherwise I'd be interested to hear it).
Hi ya PB

AN 9.37 does mention the jhanas, but via an alternative name. The mention is found in the Añjana Grove narrative, nestled within the main narrative set in Ghosita’s Park. This sutta was discussed in this thead - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p223448" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Granted, it's all Pali gobbledy-gook. To summarise briefly, what Ven T translates as the "concentration ...not with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed" is in the Pali described as "na saṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato samādhi". The said thread discusses what exactly is meant by this samādhi. It means the 4 Jhanas, based on a direct identification in DN 34 (section of 5s on "that to be made to arise"), and several other suttas which discuss it in a context which can only be jhana.

I know that thread is pretty tough-going in terms of the Pali. If you require clarification of any of the Pali texts, let me know and we can take it from there. (Just noticed one typo, when I correlated the 5 knowledges of one possessed of jhana in DN 34 to AN 5.28. It should be to AN 5.27, depending on the numbering adopted by the translators).

Also, what do you make of the kayagatasati sutta which is explicitly about mindfulness of the physical body and talks about the 4 jhanas in connection with that?
I'm going to apply textual criticism to that text and see how it fares. I take it that when you say "in connection with that", you meant this series of pericopes -
Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

.....

Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
And this is where I see a problem with this redaction of the underlined text when it pops up in the jhana series, against doctrine elsewhere. The text underlined in Pali is -
Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati, ekodi hoti, samādhiyati. Evampi bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagataṃ satiṃ bhāveti.
Elsewhere (eg AN 3.100), it is clear that memories and resolves connected with the householder's life are middling and subtle hindrances, that are abandoned after the gross defilements are abandoned -
In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk — aware & able by nature — abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.

"When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Even these defilements connected to the householder's life need to be abandoned, before tackling the subtlest of defilements, ie thoughts of the Dhamma/dhammas. When that happens, concentration deepens to the point of jhana. And here you have it again, that mysterious quality of the jhanas that are na saṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato (underlined text). What that error seems to have achieved is to make the jhanas the condition for the abandonment of the Hindrances, instead of the other way around.

Granted, textual criticism is not everyone's cuppa, but might you have a better explanation for how that pericope slipped into the jhana series and how to reconcile it to the presentation elsewhere that the jhanas are the outcome of the abandonment of the Hindrances, instead of being the cause? It's one of the fairly common artefacts of the oral recitation process, according to Ven Analayo. Tse fu Kuan devotes the entire Chapter 4 of his "Mindfulness in Early Buddhism" to showing how MN 119 evolved and picked up pericopes along its development from other texts.

:anjali:
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

daverupa wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Can the "body" as a sense faculty establish contact with anything other than tactility?
It doesn't seem to be so; but perhaps body in the jhana metaphors isn't strictly the body-faculty?
SN 48.42 wrote:..."Brahmin, these five faculties have different domains, different resorts; they do not experience each others' resort and domain. What five? The eye... ear... nose... tongue... body faculty. Now, brahmin, these five faculties have different domains, different resorts, not experiencing each others' resort and domain - they take recourse in the mind, and the mind experiences their resort and domain."
Perhaps the mind infuses these resorts and domains, otherwise a 'body' of percepts? Perhaps this sort of attitude is also exemplified in brahmavihara pervasion?
Hi Dave

The "different domains, different resorts" here are nānāvisaya nānāgocara. I suspect the "domain, resorts" are just simply synonyms. These visaya, gocara pop up also in suttas such as SN 47.6, where the context makes clear that it's the external sense objects (where Mara's domain is described as the 5 kāmaguṇa) or MN 106 (where Mara's domain is described as the kāmā and kāmasaññā).
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:AN 9.37 does mention the jhanas, but via an alternative name. The mention is found in the Añjana Grove narrative, nestled within the main narrative set in Ghosita’s Park.
Compare the underlined portion of AN 9.37:
  • Sister, the concentration that does not lean forward and does not bend back, and that is not reigned in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the defilements] -- by being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, one is not agitated. The Blessed One said this concentration has final knowledge as its fruit.
With the underlined portion from SN 22.53, 54, & 55:
  • When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbāna. He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'
It seems that we are dealing with a very specific, liberational samādhi in both cases. Specifically with regard to the content of AN 9.37, the likely samādhi is explained in AN 10.6:
  • "Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?"

    "He could, Ānanda."

    "But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?"

    "Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: 'This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.' It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration...."
This samādhi is probably equivalent to the perception of "bhavanirodho nibbāna" described in the next sutta, AN 10.7, and the perception of cessation (nirodhasaññā) described in AN 10.60, and in this way is related to the aññāphala samādhi of AN 9.37.
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

Hi Geoff

I would not disagree with you when you equate the samādhi from AN 10.6 with AN 10.7’s “bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ” perception.

But I think it’s quite a stretch to equate the na saṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato samādhi from AN 9.37 with the AN 10.6 samādhi. Consider this.

The pericope from SN 22.53 -55
By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbāna. He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'
comes in an abridged form in other suttas, ie
Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world
This pericope pops up in these suttas, in these contexts -

DN 15 -
Now, Ananda, in as far as a monk does not assume feeling to be the self, nor the self as oblivious, nor that 'My self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling,' then, not assuming in this way, he is not sustained by anything (does not cling to anything) in the world. Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
MN 11 -
Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self.[11] When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.
MN 140 -
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world . Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'


The "neither fabricates nor mentally fashion" is "so neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati", which comes very close to the "neither thinking nor intending" from DN 9's exposition for entry into the Attainment of Cessation. This leads me to suspect that MN 140 is dealing with the same, just before the extinguishment.

Other suttas address this non-agitation in these contexts -

MN 22 – agitation being assumptions of self based on the aggregates or cosmos; non-agitation = This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am

MN 138 – agitation being assumptions of self based on the aggregates

SN 35.30 – non-agitation arises from not-conceiving (na maññati) in respect of the 6 sense bases.

SN 35.31 ditto for aggregates and elements

SN 35.90 – ditto for contact and feelings

SN 35.234 – non-recognition of self in relation to the 6 bases

AN 7.61 – Pacalāyamāna Sutta – contemplation of anicca virāga nirodha paṭinissagga

The samādhi from AN 10.6-7 is mentioned only one other time, in AN 11.7. On the other hand, the more frequent cause of non-agitation seems to be non-clinging.

How do you address DN 34's identification of the jhanas as na saṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato, or that AN 3.100 suggests that such a concentration is jhana?

I find it hard to make the leap from AN 9.36 and SN 22.53 to AN 10.6, since other things besides non-perception can account for the non-establishment of consciousness. See SN 12.38 for how the cessation of sankhāra also leads to non-establishment of consciousness, echoing MN 140 and DN 9. Ven T makes the equation, but he will have to account for why his kiṃphalo ended up being translated as "fruit of what", instead of "of what fruit". If that interrogative were correctly translated as a bahubbīhi instead of a genitive tappurissa, what would be the basis for the connection between the na saṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato samādhi and the perception "bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ"?
Nyana
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:The "neither fabricates nor mentally fashion" is "so neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati", which comes very close to the "neither thinking nor intending" from DN 9's exposition for entry into the Attainment of Cessation. This leads me to suspect that MN 140 is dealing with the same, just before the extinguishment.
Are you suggesting that MN 140 and these other suttas that use the pericope: "Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world,'" require the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling for realization to occur?
Sylvester
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

Hmm, I hadn't entertained that thought, but now that you mention it...

So, what do you think those 2 present tense verbs in MN 140 denote? Let me not be the first to declare 'imperative'.
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Assaji
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Assaji »

Thank you very much, Sylvester and Ñāṇa.

I hope you don't mind that I have used your references in the new topic:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16422" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Sylvester
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Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

By all means and thanks for the effort.
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