MN 39 similes

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?

"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

"Maha-Assapura Sutta: The Greater Discourse at Assapura" (MN 39), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 29 August 2012, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Retrieved on 4 March 2013.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

The best simile I've heard is of a candle, which burns in one spot but casts light on everything around it; in the same way, we should direct our samadhi at one thing (our breath) while the "light" of our concentration touches everything.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:The best simile I've heard is of a candle, which burns in one spot but casts light on everything around it; in the same way, we should direct our samadhi at one thing (our breath) while the "light" of our concentration touches everything.
how do we work with one pointedness of mind then? either i'm watching one point, or many points. i suppose with practice one could see the body as this single point?
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Polar Bear »

Instead of one-pointedness of mind think of unification of mind. When you center and calm the mind then it can be aware of the whole body without being diffuse or scattered.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by lojong1 »

I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful.
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

lojong1 wrote:I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful.
Ekaggatā = single point roughly. usually translated as "one pointedness".

it's one of the jhanic factors so, helpful or not, it's here to stay.
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by lojong1 »

It's all yours, friend. Staying power is highly relevant, size doesn't matter.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by mikenz66 »

alan... wrote:
lojong1 wrote:I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful.
Ekaggatā = single point roughly. usually translated as "one pointedness".
This may be reading a little too much into the term. See the discussion here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by lojong1 »

lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."
[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.
And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

lojong1 wrote:lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."
[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.
And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!
the body similes go all the way up to the fourth jhana.
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

lojong1 wrote:It's all yours, friend. Staying power is highly relevant, size doesn't matter.
?
alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by alan... »

mikenz66 wrote:
alan... wrote:
lojong1 wrote:I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful.
Ekaggatā = single point roughly. usually translated as "one pointedness".
This may be reading a little too much into the term. See the discussion here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
oh okay that's really helpful. so it's still singular concentration but not necessarily on one "point" as in something small or extremely focused and thus could include the whole body. thanks!
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Sylvester »

alan... wrote:
lojong1 wrote:lojong1 wrote: "I'm not sure this 'single point' idea is helpful."
[for entering first jhana.] -- sorry i left that out.
And behold, it's not a 1st jhana factor in this sutta anyway! What would yous do without me!
the body similes go all the way up to the fourth jhana.
Alan

Take a look at this - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p204099" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

In fact, if you consult the Pali grammars, the -ena inflection is not limited to such instrumental of MEANS. It is also used to convey the sense of the instrumental of MANNER (see Warder p.45 where he in fact identifies "kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti" as carrying this sense). What happens when you read this as such will mean that the pleasure of the 3rd Jhana is experienced "bodily".

You can check out the discussion on "bodily" here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 98&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is that in the suttas, "bodily" as a manner of experience, is not limited to the 5 physical senses of vision, hearing, olfaction, taste and tactility, unlike the Abhidhamma. The mind also experiences feelings "bodily", namely when it feels hedonic tone (pleasure, pain, neither pleasure-nor-pain) - MN 148. The mental (cetasika) experience comes later when one feels the affective tone (joy, sadness, equanimity).

As for the body similes, ask yourself this about eg rapture and pleasure born of concentration. Can the "body" as a sense faculty establish contact with anything other than tactility? See MN 43.

In fact, even if you absolutely deny the plain meaning of vivicceva kāmehi (quite secluded from the kāmā), take a look at AN 9.37, where it's stated that in the jhanas and formless attainments, one does not experience the base where 5 sense objects are present. There was a discussion here -

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p223448" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven T's translation of AN 9.37 is bad on several scores, and I don't think it was mere carelessness. That post addresses the grammatical error; another error was Ven T's temporal displacement of the "still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated" as the fruit of gnosis, whereas everywhere else in the suttas, it is the precursor to gnosis (eg SN 22.53).

It is good sometimes to doubt, especially when one notices that some translations have been so badly done, just to press into service the pet theory that one promotes.
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Assaji »

Hi Alan,
alan... wrote:here and a few other places the buddha talks about the body in reference to jhana, posted below is the one at MN 39. so what do we make of this? are we to keep the entire body in mind throughout meditation or what?
You can find detailed instructions in writings of Acharn Lee Dhammadharo:

"When mindfulness saturates the body the way flame saturates every thread in the mantle of a Coleman lantern, the elements throughout the body work together like a group of people working together on a job: Each person helps a little here and there, and in no time at all — almost effortlessly — the job is done. Just as the mantle of a Coleman lantern whose every thread is soaked in flame becomes light, white, and dazzling, so if you soak your mind in mindfulness until it's aware of the entire body, both the body and mind become buoyant. When you think using the power of mindfulness, your sense of the body will immediately become thoroughly bright, helping to develop both body and mind. You'll be able to sit or stand for long periods of time without getting tired, to walk for great distances without getting fatigued, to go for unusually long periods of time on just a little food without getting hungry, or to go without food and sleep altogether for several days running without losing energy."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... illof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: MN 39 similes

Post by Polar Bear »

Sylvester wrote:
The suttas use the term kāya in many fashions, both literal and idiomatic.

What you see in these "body" pericopes would be exemplified for example by "... with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body." (pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti).

The standard translations render the kāyena as a regular instrumental (ie "with the" to denote the MEANS by which one experiences). One then needs to ask - which body is intended to be the instrument, the physical body (literal reading) or the mental body (also a literal reading) or perhaps some idiomatic meaning?

Why would the Buddha be so misleading with his fourth jhana simile?

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Post Reply