Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks, Sylvester, that's very helpful.

:anjali:
Mike
alan...
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by alan... »

thanks for this thread mike!

so visuddhimagga people go for deep absorption by maintaining a mental image. setting aside intensity of absorption and looking only at the idea of using a mental image or not, this seems to have support in the suttas based on the above, right?

what does this say of teachings that do not use any mental imagery or at any rate, people who pay them no mind? for example leigh brasington? is there support in the suttas for this as well? as far as i can tell his method involves a feeling instead of an image.

in my experience both work, but i don't know if they are actually working in the pure dhamma sense or just in a broad concentration sense. there are plenty of meditations that will create peace of mind but only one samma samadhi, or so it seems.

with the leigh method i get concentration and amazing blissful feelings, during there seem to be more thoughts than with the other method and after i come out of it my mind is very focused and clear.

with the nimitta method i get deep concentration with little bliss, instead i get a deep tranquility. during i have zero or next to zero thoughts and after my mind is amazingly calm and i see things very clear.

or perhaps they both should coexist?

i'm quite confused.

thoughts?
Last edited by alan... on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by mikenz66 »

alan... wrote: so visuddhimagga people go for deep absorption by maintaining a mental image. setting aside intensity of absorption and looking only at the idea of using a mental image or not, this seems to have support in the suttas based on the above, right?
It seems to have some support. Certainly Ajahn Brahm seems to think so, since he teaches this method.
alan... wrote: what does this say of teachings that do not use any mental imagery or at any rate, people who pay them no mind? for example leigh brasington? is there support in the suttas for this as well? as far as i can tell his method involves a feeling instead of an image.
I think that's still a "sign of concentration". Just not visual.
alan... wrote: in my experience both work, but i don't know if they are actually working in the pure dhamma sense or just in a broad concentration sense. there are plenty of meditations that will create peace of mind but only one samma samadhi, or so it seems.

with the leigh method i get concentration and amazing blissful feelings, during there seem to be more thoughts than with the other method and after i come out of it my mind is very focused and clear.

with the nimitta method i get deep concentration with little bliss, instead i get a deep tranquility. during i have zero or next to zero thoughts and after my mind is amazingly calm and i see things very clear.

or perhaps they both should coexist?

i'm quite confused.

thoughts?
It seems to me that different methods do give different "flavours" to the experience. But in the end, it seems to me that (speaking very generally) the point is not really the particular experience, but the insights that can arise from observing the experience. That's the real "Dhamma" part.


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Mike
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by alan... »

mikenz66 wrote:
alan... wrote: so visuddhimagga people go for deep absorption by maintaining a mental image. setting aside intensity of absorption and looking only at the idea of using a mental image or not, this seems to have support in the suttas based on the above, right?
It seems to have some support. Certainly Ajahn Brahm seems to think so, since he teaches this method.
alan... wrote: what does this say of teachings that do not use any mental imagery or at any rate, people who pay them no mind? for example leigh brasington? is there support in the suttas for this as well? as far as i can tell his method involves a feeling instead of an image.
I think that's still a "sign of concentration". Just not visual.
alan... wrote: in my experience both work, but i don't know if they are actually working in the pure dhamma sense or just in a broad concentration sense. there are plenty of meditations that will create peace of mind but only one samma samadhi, or so it seems.

with the leigh method i get concentration and amazing blissful feelings, during there seem to be more thoughts than with the other method and after i come out of it my mind is very focused and clear.

with the nimitta method i get deep concentration with little bliss, instead i get a deep tranquility. during i have zero or next to zero thoughts and after my mind is amazingly calm and i see things very clear.

or perhaps they both should coexist?

i'm quite confused.

thoughts?
It seems to me that different methods do give different "flavours" to the experience. But in the end, it seems to me that (speaking very generally) the point is not really the particular experience, but the insights that can arise from observing the experience. That's the real "Dhamma" part.


:anjali:
Mike
i like that attitude. considering how great each method has worked for me, to right one or another off as "wrong" seems like a bad idea. although some who teach these methods would certainly call theirs the only right ones...

you also make a good point about the "real "Dhamma" part." mastering all the jhanas is useless in a dhamma sense if you don't understand insight. i say "in a dhamma sense" because in a real world sense they will still make one more calm and happy regardless of whether or not the practitioner understands them in a dhamma sense, which is extremely useful!

so what to do with my confusion then? perhaps i will read the suttas.
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

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alan... wrote: i like that attitude. considering how great each method has worked for me, to right one or another off as "wrong" seems like a bad idea. although some who teach these methods would certainly call theirs the only right ones...
My solution is to simply ignore anyone who claims to have the one true method or the one true interpretation of the Buddha-Vacana.

However, I would advise following the suggestions of one particular teacher. Different teachers can sound contradictory because they are trying to give what they think is the most effective way of approaching the path, based on their experience, and the experience of their students.

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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by alan... »

mikenz66 wrote:
alan... wrote: i like that attitude. considering how great each method has worked for me, to right one or another off as "wrong" seems like a bad idea. although some who teach these methods would certainly call theirs the only right ones...
My solution is to simply ignore anyone who claims to have the one true method or the one true interpretation of the Buddha-Vacana.

However, I would advise following the suggestions of one particular teacher. Different teachers can sound contradictory because they are trying to give what they think is the most effective way of approaching the path, based on their experience, and the experience of their students.

:anjali:
Mike
especially if they are focused solely on one specific method! the buddha taught so many it's amazing. and he gave a fair amount of variation on many of the individual methods as well. so when someone says "the only way is MY way and it's this specific training taught by the buddha", i'm kind of like "...hmmm... i'm going to just back up and leave quietly."
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by SarathW »

As per Sylvester's comment,
I can relate to the sign of light.
Can anyone related to the sign of form?
Give some details please.
:)
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by SarathW »

While we are in this discussion, I like to point out some thing which we did not mention in this forum.

According to Suttas, prince Siddhartha has seen four Nimittas before he left his home.

-Old person, sick person, dead body and a monk (Four Nimittas)
- These Nimittas are related to (I think), Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha, Anatta and Nirvana

-So Nimitta is some thing we see before hand which link to the next outcome.
The most important thing is to grasp the meaning of Nimitta. Otherwise you will miss the point.
For example if I see these four Nimitas, I will not have the same effect as for the prince Siddhartha.
============

In a lighter note, village people in Sri Lanka look for a Nimitta before they do some important task.
Sometimes they bother going to make a deliberate good Nimitta.
For example, if I am going to a job interview my mother will meet me on the way with water filled vesal in her hand
:)
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by mikenz66 »

It's worth realising that the word nimitta is used in a variety of contexts, not just in reference to concentration. Of course, this would be expected for a word that translates as sign, etc:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#nimitta

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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote:As per Sylvester's comment,
I can relate to the sign of light.
Can anyone related to the sign of form?
Give some details please.
:)
Advice on tactile "nimittas", and how best to use them?

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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by SarathW »

Thanks mike' it is very helpful. :anjali:
I understand Tactile Nimitta is referring to the Form Nimitta.
It appears to me with the little experience I have:
Form Nimitta is related to the Rupa aspect and the Light Nimitta is related to the Nama aspect.
:thinking:
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Just found this old thread. Very interesting. Thanks Mike :anjali:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:03 am Sign of tranquilty (samathaanimitta)

DN iii 213. DN 33, page 481
1.9. ‘There are [sets of] two things that were perfectly proclaimed by the Lord... Which are they?
...
(23) ‘Calm and insight (samatho ca vipassanā ca).

(24) ‘The sign of calm and grasping the sign (samatha-nimittañ ca paggaha-nimittañ ca).
...
The word "nimitta" is found 14 times in DN 33 and none appear to be a reference to the ekaggata nimitta of jhana. Sujato translates the above as:
The foundation of serenity and the foundation of exertion.

Samathanimittañca paggahanimittañca
paggaha
masculine
exertion; energy; lifting; holding up; support; patronage.
:alien:
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:03 amSN v 66. SN 46.2, p1570
“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of concentration and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of concentration? There are, bhikkhus, the sign of serenity, the sign of nondispersal[62] frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of concentration and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of concentration.
  • [62] Spk: The sign of serenity (samathanimitta) is serenity itself as well as its object (Spk-pṭ: the paṭibhāganimitta or counterpart sign); the sign of nondispersal (abyagganimitta) is synonymous with it.
The above is also highly questionable or clutching at straws because the word nimitta is found in the sutta including:
There is the feature of beauty (fuels the arising of sensual desire).
Atthi, bhikkhave, subhanimittaṃ.

There is the feature of harshness (fuels the arising of ill will).
Atthi, bhikkhave, paṭighanimittaṃ.
There appears nothing compelling in SN 46.2 to support the conclusion samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ refer to the ekaggata sign of jhana.
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:34 amUpakkilesa Sutta, MN 128
The above appears to be about the development of psychic powers or the Divine Eye of Anuruddha.
Do you see Anuruddha walking meditation together with several mendicants?”
Passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, anuruddhaṃ sambahulehi bhikkhūhi saddhiṃ caṅkamantan”ti?

“Yes, sir.”
“Evaṃ, bhante”.

“All of those mendicants have clairvoyance.
“Sabbe kho ete, bhikkhave, bhikkhū dibbacakkhukā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn14.15/en/sujato
:alien:
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:03 amIn his Encyclopaedia entry Ven Analayo notes:

The relation of the nimitta to the development of concentration is also reflected in the expressions sign of tranquilty (samathaanimitta), sign of concentration (samadhinimitta), and sign of the mind (cittanimitta), which occur in serveral instances in the discourses. the development of beneficial types of nimitta is particularly relevant to the beginning stages of samatha meditation.
The above sounds tenuous.
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Re: Suttas mentioning tranquility and concentration nimittas

Post by mikenz66 »

It's interesting to look at this a few years on. I think Sylvester's analysis here: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 85#p226785 is helpful, distinguishing causes from results. Assaji's thread here https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2770 is also very useful.

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Mike
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