Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:55 pm

Why have I been picturing a blade guided across wood turning on a lathe, with a turn being one pass across?
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby James the Giant » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:29 am

It's a famous simile from the Satipatthana Sutta. Or the Mahasatipatthana sutta
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
James the Giant
 
Posts: 784
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:35 am

Yes, I'm wanting to hear more about the practice of 'turning' as it was back in the day.
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby Virgo » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:42 am

lojong1 wrote:Yes, I'm wanting to hear more about the practice of 'turning' as it was back in the day.


It likely refers to a potters use of a potter's wheel. As with any lathe, one has to be aware of the speed at which one turns it, knowing what speed one should turn it at and being aware that one turns at that speed. Likewise, the simile seems to denote that one needs to have that kind of presence of awareness in ones activities. Bear in mind the commentary is clear that simply being mindful in a rote way - as in simply focusing on the speed at which one turns the lathe without any understanding - is similar to the mindfulness of a dog and is not what is aimed for. What is needed is mindfulness with understanding. Example: when a monk stops himself from looking in a mirror since doing so would be a breech of the training rules, he doesn't simply force himself not to because "those are the rules and he must follow them", or because "following those rules leads to peace" but because he understands that it is only because of lobha (attachment) that he even wishes to use the mirror and see himself, and so forth, and that he mindfully, with understanding, refrains from doing so because he understands that it is not worth it, not necessarily because he forces himself not to. Therefore, there are actual eight-fold-path moments with Right Effort, and so forth.

Kevin
Virgo
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:50 am

This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:02 am

TY!
Can folks explain in detail how they relate this turning to the breath? Given the perfection of so many other of buddha's similes, doesn't this one look a little misunderstood or just plain shite? Why would you ever make the wood turn slowly?
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:48 pm

lojong1 wrote:TY!
Can folks explain in detail how they relate this turning to the breath? Given the perfection of so many other of buddha's similes, doesn't this one look a little misunderstood or just plain shite? Why would you ever make the wood turn slowly?


I like this simile a lot; I see it this way. You would want to control the speed of the turn because that is one of the variables that determines how the wood comes off (along with pressure and angle of the cutting tool). But Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, and I.B. Horner all translate this as turning "long" and "short". I take this to mean the extent to which one depresses the treadle, and thus the duration and speed of the revolutions in one direction before it spins back again. The turner would have to watch this very intently and be sensitive to any little changes, as when the turn stops they would not want the tool to be deeply engaged. When first trying the lathe, one would need to focus on nothing but the treadle and the length of the turn. But as one developed skill, one could remain aware of the length of the turn in the background, while focusing on other aspects of the craft.
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'


I think the key here is not to worry too much about whether it is an exact analogy, but to use it if one finds it conducive to progress.
User avatar
Sam Vara
 
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:20 pm

lojong1 wrote:TY!
Can folks explain in detail how they relate this turning to the breath? Given the perfection of so many other of buddha's similes, doesn't this one look a little misunderstood or just plain shite? Why would you ever make the wood turn slowly?

it is about knowing the length of the breath, not the speed.
" Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference" (DN 22), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 15 October 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html . Retrieved on 17 February 2013. wrote:' Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns, 'I am making a long turn,' or when making a short turn discerns, 'I am making a short turn'
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Short turn, yes, not slow.
Early last year Daverupa quotes this: "One will also notice that certain passages are not found elsewhere in the Pāli—for example, the simile where a yogi sensing each breathflow’s length is compared to a turner who knows the duration of each pass [of the blade?] on the lathe."
This is still the only way I can make sense of the lathe image, so is this possible based on the pali? Is there still uncertainty about it's meaning? Virgo says potter's wheel!
This won't worry or hold me back too long; it's just the burning question of the day.
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:26 pm

lojong1 wrote:Short turn, yes, not slow.
Early last year Daverupa quotes this: "One will also notice that certain passages are not found elsewhere in the Pāli—for example, the simile where a yogi sensing each breathflow’s length is compared to a turner who knows the duration of each pass [of the blade?] on the lathe."
This is still the only way I can make sense of the lathe image, so is this possible based on the pali? Is there still uncertainty about it's meaning? Virgo says potter's wheel!
This won't worry or hold me back too long; it's just the burning question of the day.

why not call the profession a potter, there certainly was a name for them as there are potters and potters sheds within the canon. it is a lathe worker as far as I know and can tell, and others who are far more adept at pali than most on the forum know such as Ajahn Dhammanando linked to above. so the case is closed as far as I am concerned.
I am no potter, but, how can a potter do a long or short turn? it simply makes more sense to me that it is a lathe worker. but maybe the commentaries give more info?! however it speed was the point a potter would make more sense as they do need to very the speed (as I understand what they do at least).
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:04 pm

Sam Vara wrote:I take this to mean the extent to which one depresses the treadle, and thus the duration and speed of the revolutions in one direction before it spins back again.

TY SV.
For me, this wiki article on turning allows me to enjoy the simile, because it lets me keep the passing blade as the turn, long or short.
Oh but this I just found right satisfies me -- wiki woodturning.
Look check it out, they turned a bowl!! I love it! I get the blade pass and a vessel full of air!
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Info on turner, apprentice and craft?

Postby lojong1 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:03 pm

lojong1 wrote:... right satisfies me

Still jonesing.
woodturning india -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2XAe9GLF6I

a bodger at work -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WX6QsRX4aA

treadle lathe -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV8DhW1pu5Y

pole lathe -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJUC2b1QXBI

I am beginning to feel the long/short pedal view now, though still want to see a short turn.
lojong1
 
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am


Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests