Samadhi (best English translation?)

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Kumara
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

tiltbillings wrote:
Kumara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... there are instances in the suttas that look like absorption practice where the meditator is unaware of his surroundings, as in not hearing a storm or feeling a whack to the head.
Yes, there are such descriptions, but have you seen them in reference to the word jhana?
No, but I would have to look at those accountings again, and I, for the life of me, cannot recall where they are. But if they were not jhana, what would they be? You have had some very interesting things to say here, so what do you think?
They are referred to as some form of samāpatti (attainment). Check it out.
Correction (8Feb2013): Better to look up āneñjasamādhi.
Last edited by Kumara on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

daverupa wrote:
porpoise wrote:I came across "singleness of mind" recently - does that get near it?
That's cittassa ekaggatā; here is a short discussion of its relationship to samadhi.
It's Ajahn Thanissaro's choice, which I find unsatisfactory, as it translate literally backwards as "ekatā". It nonetheless avoids an even more problematic translation: "one-pointedness".

It's rather longish to explain in detail with evidence here, but I've come to see that the widespread translation of "one-pointedness" is due to a misunderstanding of the "agga" in it. I believe the person who first translated it this way was under the influence of the Visuddhimagga idea of samādhi (though I've not come across anything in Visuddhimagga that gives such an idea for ekaggatā).

To make it really short, here's the conclusion of my research into this: The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.

So then ekaggatā is stillness. Cittassa ekaggatā means stillness of mind. When Dhammadinna Bhikkhuni answered Visakha's question with "cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi", I understand it to mean "stillness of mind—this is samādhi (composure)".

Hope this is enough for now. Details are in a book I'm still writing. FYI it's now approaching 25000 words. I foresee that it should go beyond 35000 words. I don't want to spend my whole life connecting the dots, yet evidence seems to be all over the Suttas when I realise what to look for. Even as I was on retreat last month, connections pop up in my head, which I jotted down to be included.
daverupa
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by daverupa »

Kumara wrote:So then ekaggatā is stillness. Cittassa ekaggatā means stillness of mind. When Dhammadinna Bhikkhuni answered Visakha's question with "cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi", I understand it to mean "stillness of mind—this is samādhi (composure)".
This sounds good.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Assaji
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Assaji »

Kumara wrote:The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.
Margaret Cone's dictionary defines "agāra" as 'a house; the household life'. With all due respect, I must say that for me expression "citta with one house (household life)" makes no sense.
The Atthakatha explanation as "with one thing predominant (agga)" is much more coherent.
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Kumara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... there are instances in the suttas that look like absorption practice where the meditator is unaware of his surroundings, as in not hearing a storm or feeling a whack to the head.
They are referred to as some form of samāpatti (attainment). Check it out.
You do have the plain old AN 9.37 for that. Even the jhanas are called attainments, as in attainments with perceptions.
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Kumara wrote:
To make it really short, here's the conclusion of my research into this: The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.

So then ekaggatā is stillness. Cittassa ekaggatā means stillness of mind. When Dhammadinna Bhikkhuni answered Visakha's question with "cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi", I understand it to mean "stillness of mind—this is samādhi (composure
.
Perhaps 'peak,?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ak#p204237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Dmytro wrote:
Kumara wrote:The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.
Margaret Cone's dictionary defines "agāra" as 'a house; the household life'. With all due respect, I must say that for me expression "citta with one house (household life)" makes no sense.
The Atthakatha explanation as "with one thing predominant (agga)" is much more coherent.
It's alright, Dmytro. Please feel free to contradict what I say.

Yes, "agāra" means "house". In fact, it's often used to mean some kind of building. But that's not the only meaning. This is from my book (minus the footnotes):
Actually, there is another meaning for agga, which is a contracted form of agāra. E.g., uposathāgāra is the same as uposathagga, meaning a hall for the fortnightly monastic observance. It occurs only in compounds, e.g., dānagga—a place where alms are given, vassagga—shelter from the rain, a shed. Although this agga or agāra often refers to some sort of building, its meaning is wider: from a mansion to a cave. Then there is suññāgāra (suñña + agāra) , which literally means “an empty place”, though “solitude” may sometimes be a more appropriate translation. Also, samagga (saṁ + agga), an adjective which literally means “placed together” and commonly used in the Suttas to mean “being in unity, harmonious”.
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Kumara
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Sylvester wrote:
Kumara wrote:
To make it really short, here's the conclusion of my research into this: The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.

So then ekaggatā is stillness. Cittassa ekaggatā means stillness of mind. When Dhammadinna Bhikkhuni answered Visakha's question with "cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi", I understand it to mean "stillness of mind—this is samādhi (composure
.
Perhaps 'peak,?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ak#p204237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's interesting, but you'd then have to translate it as "one-peak-ness of mind".
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Kumara
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Sylvester wrote:
Kumara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... there are instances in the suttas that look like absorption practice where the meditator is unaware of his surroundings, as in not hearing a storm or feeling a whack to the head.
They are referred to as some form of samāpatti (attainment). Check it out.
You do have the plain old AN 9.37 for that. Even the jhanas are called attainments, as in attainments with perceptions.
Oops. Sorry about that. Try look up āneñjasamādhi.
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

I've heard a few people translate "Samadhi" as "meditation", at least in terms of the eightfold path. I'm often uncomfortable with this. Is there any basis for it?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Assaji
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Assaji »

Kumara wrote:Yes, "agāra" means "house". In fact, it's often used to mean some kind of building. But that's not the only meaning. This is from my book (minus the footnotes):
Actually, there is another meaning for agga, which is a contracted form of agāra. E.g., uposathāgāra is the same as uposathagga, meaning a hall for the fortnightly monastic observance. It occurs only in compounds, e.g., dānagga—a place where alms are given, vassagga—shelter from the rain, a shed. Although this agga or agāra often refers to some sort of building, its meaning is wider: from a mansion to a cave. Then there is suññāgāra (suñña + agāra) , which literally means “an empty place”, though “solitude” may sometimes be a more appropriate translation. Also, samagga (saṁ + agga), an adjective which literally means “placed together” and commonly used in the Suttas to mean “being in unity, harmonious”.
Thank you for the citation, Venerable.
Evidently further discussion will have to wait until the publication of the book.

For now I'll just quote the Monier-Williams dictionary:

sám-agra mf(ā́)n. (» 2. sam) all , entire , whole , complete , each , every (ibc. = " fully " , " entirely " ; n. " all , everything ") AV. &c &c

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Kumara wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Kumara wrote:
To make it really short, here's the conclusion of my research into this: The agga in ekaggatā is probably a contracted form of agāra, which can be most generally translated as "place". Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still.

So then ekaggatā is stillness. Cittassa ekaggatā means stillness of mind. When Dhammadinna Bhikkhuni answered Visakha's question with "cittassa ekaggatā ayaṁ samādhi", I understand it to mean "stillness of mind—this is samādhi (composure
.
Perhaps 'peak,?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ak#p204237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's interesting, but you'd then have to translate it as "one-peak-ness of mind".

Thanks Bhante. I need to locate it, but I've seen one old translation as such.

I like your point about agga probably being a contracted form of agāra. How would you nominalise ekaggaṁ into ekaggatā literally, instead of using the more idiomatic "stillness"?
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Kumara wrote:
Sylvester wrote: You do have the plain old AN 9.37 for that. Even the jhanas are called attainments, as in attainments with perceptions.
Oops. Sorry about that. Try look up āneñjasamādhi.
Hi Bhante

I was in fact thinking of the āneñjasamādhi (plus more) when I cited AN 9.37.

That sutta first starts off with the āneñjasamādhi, which are declared to be -
Saññīmeva kho, āvuso, tadāyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedeti, no asaññī’’ti.

It is, friend, while one is actually percipient that one does not experience that base, not while one is non-percipient.
The tadāyatana is a reference to the base of the 5 kāmā of sights, sounds, smells, tastes and tactility.

The sutta then portrays Ven Ananda recounting an earlier narrative, when he met the nun Jaṭilagāhiyā asking about something other than the āneñjasamādhi. She enquires about the samādhi that is -
na cābhinato na cāpanato na ca sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato
We've had a discussion here - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 98#p223448" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; regarding this samādhi.
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Kumara
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Kumara »

Kumara wrote: That's interesting, but you'd then have to translate it as "one-peak-ness of mind".
Sylvester wrote:Thanks Bhante. I need to locate it, but I've seen one old translation as such.
Someone actually had it as "one-peak-ness of mind"? That's interesting. :-)
Remember that we also have to reconcile it as samādhi.
Sylvester wrote:I like your point about agga probably being a contracted form of agāra. How would you nominalise ekaggaṁ into ekaggatā literally, instead of using the more idiomatic "stillness"?
I don't get you. Isn't that already in my earlier post: "Thus, ekaggaṁ is one-placed (rather than one-pointed), as in not "all over the place", not scattered, but gathered, collected, composed. In idiomatic English, it's still."
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Re: Samadhi (best English translation?)

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks Bhante.

It's OK, I was just curious if instead of the idiomatic "stillness", you would have tolerated "one-placedness". For myself, I was thinking of "singular stationedness", resorting to the station as a synonym for establishment.
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